Acts 19-20 | Jessica Anderson and Sarah Kinzer

My guests today are Jessica Anderson and Sarah Kinzer.

Hi! I’m Jessica, most people call me Jess. I was born in New Iberia, Louisiana but currently live in South Florida with my husband, 2 kids, and goofy black lab. I attended LSU and love Jesus, football, learning/teaching, writing, and anything outside. I graduated with an elementary education degree, and am currently using the skills I learned working for a non profit called Everyday Mission. We’re committed to empowering people to create space in their neighborhoods and cities for authentic community and true discipleship. I overthink, ask wayyyy too many questions, and have been working through disentangling my faith for 2 years now. I don’t claim a denomination, I just tell people I love Jesus. I’m a little scatterbrained (toddler life) but learning to enjoy life through the mess. 

• Links: www.everydaymission.com ; insta: @hopefullyanchoredlife (personal) @everydaymissionflorida (non profit) ; Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/jessica.bourque.90 (personal) ; https://www.facebook.com/everydaymissionflorida/ (non profit)

Sarah Kinzer is a licensed minister in the Church of the Nazarene, the cohost of the Pocket Pulpit podcast and the author of Abide: The Day to Day Demystification of Holiness. She is passionate about communicating the message of holiness and helping people find freedom through faith and she believes that ministry can happen anywhere, even online.
Twitter: https://twitter.com/kinzer_sarah

Website: https://sarahkinzer.wordpress.com/

Book: Abide: The Day-To-Day Demystification of Holiness

Are you disentangling your faith from the culture around you? The greatest tool in that journey for me was the Bible itself. You’ve probably noticed that here on the show we love the Bible, and we take it seriously - but not always literally, and that means that meaning can get a little complicated. But you don’t have to let that overwhelm you. I’ve put together the Big Picture Toolkit to help you understand how all of Scripture fits together in one incredible story, learn some new questions to ask to get at meaning without getting overwhelmed, and see new connections between Old and New Testaments with a special Bible Reading Plan. If you’re ready to get back to basics of your faith, the Bible is a great place to start, and the Big Picture Bible Toolkit can help. Grab yours today free at kateboyd.co/bible.

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Transcript

Kate Boyd: 0:09

You're listening to happy and holy the podcast where scripture comes to life through a small group discussion. This season, we're walking through the birth of the church in the book of Acts. And you get to be a fly on the wall to see what new things we learn with and from one another, as we engage scripture in community. I'm your host, Kate Boyd. I'm a disciple maker, writer and speaker, who is making space in the church for Christians caught in the messy middle between conservative and progressive, between leaving the church and leaving. We love Jesus, love people and work with God and each other for a better world. Welcome to the show. Are you disentangling your faith in the culture around you? The greatest tool in that journey for me was the Bible. You probably noticed that here on the show, we love the Bible. And we take it very seriously. But we don't always take it literally. And that means that meaning can get a little complicated. But all of its complexity doesn't have to overwhelm you. And that's why I put together the big picture Bible toolkit. It will help you understand how all of Scripture fits together in one incredible story will also let you learn some new questions to ask to get at meaning without getting overwhelmed. And you'll see new connections between the Old Testament and the New Testament with a special Bible reading plan. If you're ready to get back to the basics of your faith, the Bible is a great place to start. And the big picture Bible toolkit will help you do that. Grab yours today for free at Kate boyd.co/bible. Now, let's get back to X. Welcome again, everyone. Today we're covering acts 19 and 20. But before we do, as always, I need to introduce you to my friends that are hanging out with me today. We will start with Jessica, why don't you tell us a little bit about you?

Jessica Anderson: 2:08

Hi, I'm Jessica. I was born in Louisiana currently live in South Florida with my husband, two little toddlers and a massive 75 pound under one year old puppy. Oh, wow. Um, so I work for a nonprofit called everyday mission. And we are focused on equipping what we have begun Well, we didn't start the term but we work with micro churches in the area to both equip ones that are already established, and then also help those wanting to create space in their homes for a micro Church, which is just an authentic and intentional community of believers. And so I've really loved being part of that mission in our little town. We're working on creating a network to to just learn from one another and grow together. And I've been I love your term disentangling. I've been distinctly disentangling my faith for about two years now. I grew up in the church and just kind of asking a lot of hard questions that for a while scared me but are currently making me really excited and hopeful. I don't claim a denomination. I just tell people I love Jesus. And I'm also a little scatterbrained as you can tell things too. I want to blame my foreign two year old, but I don't think that I can fully blame them for that.

Kate Boyd: 3:39

I mean, it sounds like a good excuse to me, so I'll let it fly. Oh, Sara, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself.

Sarah Kinzer: 3:49

Hey, I'm Sarah. I have two kids and two cats and two turtles and one husband and I work for the Nazarene church. I'm in ministry in Virginia, in the Shenandoah Valley, which is beautiful this time of year. I also co hosts the pocket pulpit podcast with my friend Hector. And I've written I've written a book that I love and is beautiful. And I like to read her. Her because she's mine. She's my it's called. She's called whatever it's called abide the day to day demystification of holiness. It's a little bit about me.

Kate Boyd: 4:36

Yeah. Well, thanks, guys for jumping on to join me to talk through these chapters today. And I was really, I don't know I ended up really encouraged after going through some of these chapters. So I'm excited to talk about them. So yeah, let's dive in. And Jessica, why don't you tell us recap for us? Chapter 19. All right,

Jessica Anderson: 5:01

so just a little background that I found. This is the first time that Paul meets the church. Well, what will become the church in Ephesus, and it's on his third missionary journey. So Paul meets a group that they say is about 12 Men, believers and he baptizes them in the spirit. Um, they claim to have, you know, they've their disciples, but they've only been baptized in John's baptism. So he, I think fills in some holes for them, and then lays hands on them and they begin to speak in tongues, and prophesy. He then goes into Ephesus and begins teaching in the synagogue for about three months, and some are listening and then some become hardened and they start to malign with this called in Scripture as the way following Jesus. So he leaves the synagogue after three months, and he moves into teaching in the Hall of Taranis, which was I guess, like a school. A Greek Terminus was a philosopher. So it was a philosophy school. And it was a place of discussion and teaching and he teaches there and talks there and debates there for in Ephesus for two years. God's Spirit begins healing through Paul and extremely powerful ways. He's leaving cloth with people and they're bringing them back to other people who are sick and they're being healed. And then, some Jewish exorcists. It says the seven sons of Skiba try to cast out demons in in Jesus name, and the demons kind of shout back like we know Jesus, and we know Paul, but who are you? That's got to be one of my favorite lines of

Kate Boyd: 7:00

that line. Goodbye.

Jessica Anderson: 7:02

No, no you. So instead, the man who's possessed, attacks them and send them running off naked. So the Lord's name is hauled and it says the Lord's name is held in high esteem. Because of this, we know because of this thing that's happened and kind of spread through there's some fear of, of who God is and the power that he has. This event provokes some believers who are still practicing magic in the area, to burn their books and disclose their practices to other believers. So it says that it was worth about 50 50,000 pieces of silver, which it varies on how much that's actually worth. But it was a good sum of money and the could have gone and sold these books. But instead of leaving them to other people, they choose to destroy them. Paul decides after this, that he's eventually going to leave Ephesus, and go on to Asia. And then after that, Rome. And then it's, it kind of has a break in the text. And it goes on to a very long summation of a businessman named Demetrius, who makes money off of selling statues of Artemis, the Greek goddess, to people in Ephesus, he riles up the entire city essentially. Looking for Paul, he drags him in the car, drag two of Paul's companions into this big amphitheater, and it becomes what's pretty much a riot until they are pacified by the city clerk. Which basically says everyone knows that Artemis is the god here and we you know that we worship her. And so let's just let these people leave. If you have an actual complaint against them, you need to bring it to court, please go home. So that is the end of chapter 19.

Kate Boyd: 9:12

Yeah, there's a lot of stuff in chapter 19. I was like, Oh my goodness. I know. There's a lot to cover. So thank you for recapping that for us. Um, yeah, let's start with Paul's stop in Ephesus and his baptizing people and then teaching in the synagogue. So, um, yeah, Sarah, what jumped out at you in this section?

Sarah Kinzer: 9:41

Oh, well, at the very beginning, you know, it. Um, it stood out to me that they hadn't heard of it. They didn't hadn't even heard that there was a spirit. And so I wondered like, what had come to them before what had they been? How had they been installed? that this like, this feels like a pretty important piece of the, of the story of the puzzle that that was just left out.

Kate Boyd: 10:09

I mean, it was surprising to me. I think that John's baptism had made it this far, but not necessarily Jesus's stuff, you know what I mean to these people? Because it seems like, that feels backwards to me from the way things had spread. Or that we had known they spread, I guess, I had no idea that the idea of John's baptism of repentance, you know, had also spread beyond Israel and into all these other places. That was surprising to me.

Sarah Kinzer: 10:44

It reminded me of when the when the unik comes from Ethiopia, and he's, he's got like, the background stuff. And he's he's asked, you know, do you know what this means? And he says, How am I going to know if nobody tells me right point, and then He's baptized? It reminded me of that story.

Jessica Anderson: 11:04

And I did, when I was like, because this was one of my rabbit trails, I did find that for most people, like these disciples had heard of the holy had heard of the Holy Spirit, they just hadn't heard of it working through, you know, before that it was in the temple was in, it wasn't in people. So they would not have been healing, and things like that unless they had been, you know? Yeah. I don't know that it wasn't that they didn't know the Holy Spirit, they just didn't know that they could be baptized in it.

Kate Boyd: 11:39

Yeah, that's sort of the impression I got from some of my reading, and said, you know, the claim is not that they didn't know about the spirit. Because if they heard about the baptism of John, then presumably they're Jewish, I would think, and that he's, you know, in synagogues and whatnot at this point, because he just entered Ephesus. So then it made me think, okay, so they're at least familiar that there is a spirit. And the Spirit had worked in, like on people in the Old Testament and things like that. But it wasn't something it was either like a temporary thing. Or it was like a future future thing for them. And so they didn't realize that it had come this way. And at this time, so it was just sort of a, they didn't realize it was available to them now. And and it was, I also am struck like, I know that every time that Paul goes into a new place, at this point, it's well established that he stopped in the synagogue first. But three months sounds like a really long time to be in a place where people aren't responding to you like the perseverance or the commitment, I guess, to doing that feels, feels like a lot. It's probably more than I would have given it. Given the responses, you know,

Sarah Kinzer: 13:03

I was just pleased that he moved on. I mean, I think I've been around places for a long time where people aren't doing what I'm saying.

Jessica Anderson: 13:12

Well, and so the NIV says, but some of them became obstinate. So my thought is that I so so he leaves the people that become obstinate and begin to malign the way, but I would think that three months in, he is still having, you know, he's still it says he took the disciples with him. It doesn't say whether or not those are, I would think that they were probably a group of new ones as well. So it's not, I would think if he stayed three months, does he stay that long? And most of the other synagogues, or is this one in particular one that he stays longer?

Kate Boyd: 13:49

I don't know. I feel like the timelines aren't normally as specific as this in what we've covered so far. They're usually just like he went. And he stayed there a while. And so obviously, he went to the synagogue, and then he went to the public places. And so what's interesting about this one is, I mean, even these two chapters, this whole journey for him, it's much more specific on timelines, which is, which is sort of a new feature, because before it was just sort of like they went there, and they hung out a while, and then people tried to kill them. So they left you know, but this one is like it's pacing out for you.

Jessica Anderson: 14:27

I wonder if that has to do with when Luke joined Paul on his like, travels, because I noticed I think it was I think it was chapter 16. When it kind of goes from they did this and they did that too. And then we entered. So if that has something to do with because he was there for those timelines, he was maybe able to, like, record better. You know, there was something with the way that he was studying the history of what it happen before he started on these journeys, you know, with Peter and everything he was studying under other people who had seen them preach and heard their, you know, if they didn't record their timeframes as well.

Kate Boyd: 15:13

Yeah, it's definitely more of a first hand account because like you said, he's there. And then later on, I think in this section somewhere, we get another we, and not just a Paul. So I do think that's part of it, Luke is actually there with them. And he's actually recording what's happening, versus like getting the secondhand account from Paul. So I think that's definitely part of it. The other detail in the section that jumped out at me was that there were about 12 of the people who had and sort of like going backwards in the story from where we were just discussing, and who had been under the baptism of John and we're now in the baptism of the Spirit at this moment. And so that was kind of fun, a fun detail, and that they also spoke in tongues and things like that. So the Holy Spirit again, and as we've been leading up to this, we've been seeing that the you know, go line for who's in and who's out is is the presence of the Spirit. That's how they're starting to mark that versus circumcision. Even Peters doing that, a few chapters back and so this is a fun, sort of like parallel detail, and we see some of this a lot in Acts. But yeah, I thought that was kind of like a little interesting tidbit. Um, okay, the sons of Skiba. This guy, so yeah, the sorcerer, the sorcerer, the exorcists how whatever they're doing, are trying the Jesus formula, and it's not working for them. No, no,

Sarah Kinzer: 17:01

I like trespass.

Kate Boyd: 17:03

I know, like the shade that it's coming from the Spirit is like, favorite thing

Sarah Kinzer: 17:09

heard about Paul, but sorry, who are you? I don't know. It's yeah.

Kate Boyd: 17:17

I mean, can you imagine what it would be like, you're like, Oh, I'm this big, important exorcist person. And here I am, I'm going to use this new formula that everyone's been raving about. And then that's the response you get. It's like, I don't even know who you are. Leave me alone.

Jessica Anderson: 17:35

I did, I did not get a chance to like, go really look into the history of these. I thought it was interesting, you know, some Jews when who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke so were they just kind of going around and casting out demons was that like, normal. Um, at this particular time,

Kate Boyd: 17:58

I was getting the impression from the reading than I did that it was pretty normal. There were a lot of exorcists. And the Jewish ones were supposedly, like extra good at it, because they're Gods because they only had one God. And he was considered the supreme god, at least, to Jews, but certainly to other people. Because we get this a few chapters back with some of the other magicians, they're talking about how, because Israel only had one God, and everybody else had a bunch of gods that they could choose from, to invoke to cast out a spirit, or whatever, or to make magic things happen. That, you know, Israel's will seem to be better because they have only one God. And so therefore, all the power is consolidated into one. And so it seemed to be something that happened pretty regularly is that whether it was you know, the magicians or the sorcerers that we see back or the exorcists that yeah, the casting out of spirits and stuff like that was something that was happening regularly.

Jessica Anderson: 19:06

Because I guess I was thinking about, and this is just a question that I've had, you know, I've been kind of wrestling with for a little bit anyways, the, you know, kind of the idea of demons trying to read through some of the Old Testament and understand where the idea, not the idea, but where that is first kind of shown. I'm trying to remember from what I've read in the Old Testament, if demons were cast out, or if that is something that really started around the time of Jesus, you know, when did I guess when did Jewish people begin to kind of do that and why would they suddenly be like, oh, let's try this name. Like why kind of other than I guess that they thought it would make them more powerful would be my only gas which is why Didn't work. They weren't having Jesus as their Lord, they were simply using it I guess to create make their own name bigger in the area. But um, yeah, that's just like one of the questions that I've, I've kind of wondered is, is when they started this as like a thing as it touches for going a practice.

Kate Boyd: 20:23

Yeah, I'm trying to think of like, I can't, off the top of my head think of specific demon possession kind of things from the Old Testament, at least not in such clear terms. Yeah.

Sarah Kinzer: 20:39

Can you Sarah? Well, as I tried to think back like, there, I think they've talked about evil spirits saw implemented by an evil spirit. And there are others that I believe have been were they referred to like that, that they are tormented by an evil spirit or

Jessica Anderson: 21:06

just not being cast out yet.

Sarah Kinzer: 21:10

I think that there, i There were prophets that would, it seems to me would would do that. But it's, I mean, when you think about it, it sure stands out more. You think about Jesus casting out?

Kate Boyd: 21:26

Yeah, I mean, it's definitely a very well, I guess it's true. I mean, at least there have to be people who are have spirits and things like that pre Jesus, because Jesus does a lot of exorcism. He does healing and exorcism is like his first entry. So, and the fact that a lot of these different kinds of people and practices exist, at least tells me that this has been happening for a long enough time that people have turned it into some sort of money making thing too. So yeah, I don't know when exactly that would have developed. But it it, it appears to be a solid thing at this point.

Jessica Anderson: 22:08

What I do love about the end of that, though, is that, you know, even though the person is still being tormented by this, God is still able to use it, to glorify His name in his way, you know, it ends with When this became known to the Jews and Greeks living in Ephesus, they were all seized with fear in the name of the Lord Jesus was held in high honor. So despite what the Spirit was trying to do through this man, Jesus name was held in high honor. And it led it led eventually led to the people who were believers that were practicing magic, you know, getting rid of their books and and relying fully on God instead of the earthly things that they had found. So

Sarah Kinzer: 22:59

I didn't I don't think I really thought that it that they don't say what happens to the man to the person who's done. I hadn't thought about that I did think about in my translation, it says that, that there were groups of Jews who were trying to who were using the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, I command you in the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches to come out. And these guys were doing this and then one time when they tried it, so was it was it working for them up to a point, and that sort of made me think about like, the, these people were trying to fake you, using Jesus's name, or their own for their own gain. And I mean, that really that part really just like hit me because I cannot I can't stand when people are using the name of Jesus for for their own benefit. And for you know, it just it's distasteful to me. Yeah, Paul, and I hate it and I was glad to see here these people are doing it and it wasn't even like Paul came up and called them out on it. It was like the very demon that they were trying to have power over called them out on it like you're not real this is not like they're holding the demon is holding these people in account. And so like, I imagine what that might sound like today, like who are the enemies of God and and in what ways are we hearing them say like Jesus, I know and I've heard of this great, influential person of faith, but you're unrecognizable to me as a Christian like I feel like I I hear that feedback coming to the church now.

Kate Boyd: 24:59

You Yeah, I mean, I think there were several moments, reading through these couple of chapters that I was really sort of struck by, though this, the settings are different, I feel like and the way that they take shape is different, I feel like we're looking at a lot of the same kinds of things that we're seeing in our own society. I mean, especially when we get to, so we can move on to like the riot and emphasis. You know, after that's done, Paul's out there healing people, you know, with his handkerchiefs and everything. And, you know, as more people turn to Jesus, or listen to Paul, he is, you know, threatening the status and this and the economy of the people who make their money off of Artemis and whatnot. And so there's a lot here in this section two, that really sort of felt like some of the things that we're seeing. And, Jessica, what sort of stood out to you, in this bit? uproar.

Jessica Anderson: 26:18

So, I mean, I had to go look into who Artemis was, and kind of this was one of my little rabbit trails, um, because it led me to know give a lot more context eventually for Ephesians. And some of the

Kate Boyd: 26:34

Ephesians and Timothy and sort of, you

Jessica Anderson: 26:37

know, some of the things about men and women are like, how they treat each other and things like that, knowing the culture of where they were. And this is the first time you're really introduced to that culture. Yeah, so

Kate Boyd: 26:51

what do you find? Um,

Jessica Anderson: 26:53

so Artemis was the god of the, the God of the wood. She was like born in the woods. And they had an entire Ephesians was where she was most worshipped. They had a huge, bigger than the Parthenon place of worship for her. And she, they would basically she was the goddess, it was really confusing. She was the goddess of virginity, and also fertility, which was, yeah, an odd thing to put together. But and I don't know if it was, I can't remember if it was once a year, or when you know, when exactly this happened, but they would take her statue, and they would bring her and cleanse her into her into this river and bring her back. And that was supposed to be a renewal of her virginity. And then, on the way back, they would have a, the whole city would kind of have a grand old time, making her no longer a virgin. Yeah, it was very, it was very, like debauchery and things like that. Um, so and then they said, they would bring her back, and it would be like, we have another year of fertility. I'm very much butchering, probably, you know, as a much larger scheme, I'm sure I just, this was like, the overview of what I found. Sure.

Kate Boyd: 28:21

There's nothing moves into this.

Jessica Anderson: 28:23

Yeah. Yeah. So, um, but in Ephesians, you know, whenever he, whenever Paul starts speaking with the Ephesians, just about the roles of the relationships that you have with one another, one of the biggest things in Ephesus would have been, you know, women often had a decent, it seems like, women often had a decent amount of like, they could be disrespectful to their husbands, and it was kind of okay, and they all worshiped Artemis. And so it was, so it would have been countercultural for a woman in that particular town to say, you know, because of Christ, I am going to love you as you know, and and submit to what my husband's will is, and for the husband to do the same. But I know that those scriptures often get very used to kind of keep that hierarchical structure. But kind of knowing a little bit more about the what is behind Artemis and that culture and the worship of kind of that power. You know, instead of having it just be like this, you know, God kind of intended it to where it was almost like you know, two boards holding up one another. I think the power structure can be invoked either way, male and most often with men, but, um, so, yeah, so that was

Kate Boyd: 29:52

definitely here. Women had a lot of freedom and power and sometimes didn't use that super well, which is, which gives a lot of context for Paul's later writings and stuff like that to

Jessica Anderson: 30:10

kind of turning things around for what that particular culture is meeting it to make it right. Right for all relationships. Yeah.

Kate Boyd: 30:22

Yeah. Sarah, so in the whole riot sequence, what are some of the things that you noticed?

Sarah Kinzer: 30:32

Well, I thought about, like, the impact that that it was having on the area that it was having this financial impact on the businesses in the area. And I thought, you know, what, what would that? What would that look like today? How would is the church impacting the world in a way that that the world stops and goes, hold on this is this is shaking things up in a dramatic way. But so I thought through that, but I also thought through like, that the person who came to calm things down, was it wasn't again, it wasn't Paul, it didn't, it doesn't say it was this believer, it was the mayor, the mayor comes in is like, Listen, you guys got to chill out, because we're gonna have some real problem if Rome gets involved. And we don't have any way to explain why you guys are rioting. So I just need you guys to settle down. And I thought about if if we had someone from outside of the church step into defend us, will we would we allow that person to defend us just as they are with the with the tools or the reasoning? They didn't? He didn't step in and say, well, actually, the point of the of the Christians is, and let me explain it to you and help you understand their side of things. He just said, this is, if we don't get this in, in check, we're gonna have problems over here, and just let it go. And there was never any need to straighten out. Well, this is what actually we think about idolatry. And this is what we think about your business practices. And, you know, if we were in that situation where we were being defended by someone who was not a part of the church, would we be able to separate out? And, and allow it to just take care of itself? You know, without making our case? You know, what I mean? Does that mean or no?

Unknown: 32:48

Sort of,

Sarah Kinzer: 32:51

like, we have to sell him as being a Christian be like, now he's the voice for the church? Oh, I see. No, setting him up

Kate Boyd: 32:57

to like, almost have to, we have to co opt him. Yeah, in order to feel like his advocacy is legitimate for us. Right. Right. Okay. Yeah, it is interesting. Well, well, I don't know. Nevermind, I don't want to go there. Because I do think that we see, I do think that we see certain segments of the American church, allowing people who they would not normally allow, because of where they are, to own part of the conversation or to contribute or to like be a spokesperson. I don't think that's the same thing here. Because he's sort of in a different, what's happening here is very different. But I do think there are examples of something like that. But yeah, I mean, I think we want but I think it's almost kind of hard for us, because I feel like most of the people, quote unquote, in power, at at least, at least claim Christianity. And so it almost feels like it's hard to find the situation and when this would make would transfer easily.

Sarah Kinzer: 34:19

Yeah, I just wouldn't. Throughout all of 19 it stood out to me it was like it was the demon calling out doing things wrong. And then in the in the riot. It was the mayor who the mayor who was just a representative of Ephesus, and probably Yeah. And Artemis that was calling it out. It wasn't the church that was going to defense for itself. It was the world around and when you see I see Paul stepping in and when you see Paul acting, he is He is calling the he's either teaching his own. He's teaching the people who were here him or he is encouraging the people who have been Through the pushback,

Jessica Anderson: 35:03

he didn't feel the need to go around calling out every single thing that he saw. You know, he he wasn't the one that approached the sense of Skiba. He, you know, yeah, he was spreading the gospel without feeling just to correct every single.

Kate Boyd: 35:19

Yeah, he was just out there doing his thing. And, yeah.

Jessica Anderson: 35:24

Although in this situation, it does look like he was held back. But I think when I'm reading it, he more so wanted to save his companions.

Kate Boyd: 35:34

Yeah. Right. He wanted to go stand up for his companions. Other leaders were like, that's not a good idea right now. Just let it pass. You know, any mean? And then, yeah, so this guy steps in, in the middle of the Ryan's like, Guys, listen, you there are ways to do this. And, and I, I was trying to so when I was reading, you know, on one hand, I want it to be because like, they didn't actually do anything wrong. sort of thing. And they maybe they didn't, right. But it's, it sort of struck stood out to me, a lot of people were like, so emphasis was very independent. And this guy was like, Look, being here. We're still part of Rome, we have this freedom. And if you guys go all mob mentality on us, we're gonna end up where Rome doesn't like that. So if you want, if you have a problem, take it to the court, you know, do it the Roman way. Instead of just like mobbing people. And so that was sort of interesting to where it was almost like, I don't even know that he was defending them so much is like, just trying to sort of like keep things normal. Yeah.

Jessica Anderson: 36:51

So that they wouldn't have to have more oversight. Because yeah,

Kate Boyd: 36:55

yeah. He says

Sarah Kinzer: 36:57

the thing that I like, when the mayor speaks, it says they haven't. They haven't done anything. They haven't said anything against her, but also, but earlier. Demetrius says, Paul has been convincing people that the handmade Gods aren't Gods at all, which so that always that struck me as like Demetrius surely thinks that he said, he said something against unless the mayor considers the, the statues and the the shrines to not be representative of the Goddess,

Kate Boyd: 37:46

or at least not the same thing. Right, right. Like they can be representative. But not her presence of her. They're just more of like a token, like a souvenir. But her actual presence, I guess, is in the temple. That is an interesting difference departs, because I think you're right, it would sort of imply that Demetrius thinks that the stuff he makes is like, Goddess, and but the mayor's like, he didn't say that, you know, or even robbed the temple. I think that was a, that was another thing of like, they're neither temple robbers, nor blasphemers, which, you know, Temple robbing is sort of tantamount to blaspheming for them. And those would be like, death worthy charges. So they could, they could just outright kill them, probably, if that happened. But otherwise, the you just, you're gonna have to take it to the court and work it out. It's a very, it's an interesting episode, because there's a lot of, I mean, we see, it's almost like most of the time that we see them, butt heads with authorities or places, they either just leave, or the places just like, kill them, or try to kill them instantly. And then they either leave, you know, they leave or whatever. And here, there's an actual like, because he's staying here for a while. And that his presence has been here for a while. And so the way that we're seeing Paul and all these people handle it here, feels very different than the rest of acts that I've been reading. Because normally he would just sort of like quietly move on before someone tries to sort of step in and and overthrow or accuse or even try to stone him that's happened at this point, too. So it is sort of maybe a testament to how deep he is in Ephesus, versus like some of the other places where it just sort of was there for a minute and they started doing these things. Which is interesting.

Jessica Anderson: 39:54

Yeah, that kind of goes back to when we were talking about the amount of time that he spent even in the city. synagogue, you know that. So it feels like he had a very decent connection with, with a lot of the people there to endure a lot of what was what might have been going on?

Kate Boyd: 40:16

Yeah. I mean, I think it's it was somewhere it says two years, right? Or

Jessica Anderson: 40:21

it was three months in a synagogue. And then he went on for two years in the lecture hall.

Kate Boyd: 40:30

Yeah, so he's been there a long time. This is not, he's not just in and out in this situation, which I think sort of brought me some extra context to this last bit, because normally, he would have just like, snuck away if he had just been there for a little bit. Alright, anything else from chapter 19 that stood out or that you wish we had talked about before we move on to chapter 20.

Jessica Anderson: 40:59

I'm just, I'm just, it's a it's a lot to like, there's a lot of different ideas on baptisms. And you know, the baptism in the Holy Spirit and the baptism of John, which was the baptism of repentance. You know, I tried to look into some of that I have a lot more studying to do personally, as far as all of that goes, almost every commentary that I tried to read on Acts 19, dealt solely with that portion, like very few went on to really discuss Artemis or anything like that, it was very much focused on the baptism. And so when I was reading through other parts of Acts, I just started to kind of see, you know, it feels like, there are just so many different ways that people get baptized in the Spirit. Like at one point, Paul is just talking and everyone he's talking to, gets baptized in the Holy Spirit, and they start speaking in tongues, I think it was I wrote it, I wrote it down, chapter 10, verses 44 through 48. Um, and then they get a water baptism, and then Jesus. So it's like flipped from what we would normally think, think in our heads of what we do traditional, like, I guess, culturally, traditionally, it really just made me try to think a little bit more about baptism, because it's obviously a very powerful thing that I just haven't, you know, I, I guess, because I was baptized at 10 years old. And so I haven't looked deeply deeply into it. Um, and then in chapter eight, like in chapter eight, they were only back they had only been baptized in Jesus name, but hadn't been baptized in the Spirit. But then in chapter nine, they're baptized in the Spirit at the same time as being baptized in Jesus. And then in this chapter, they had enough ties in John's name, and then he baptized them in Jesus name. And then he lays hands on them. And so it was just like, very interesting to read all of the different I mean, God can do part of spirit, how he feels, I guess, was my main takeaway from all of that. But yeah, that that was interesting. And then this is just a big question. So but who in Scripture gives the authority to baptize others? I'm, like, trying to read into like, what that, you know, you only really see the apostles laying hands. So does that continue on in church tradition? Like, does he teach Timothy to lay hands? And then Spirit comes on? Is that passed down?

Kate Boyd: 43:46

Yeah. And the problem is, that probably varies by tradition, within, within Christianity. I mean, a Catholic would say, It came from the apostles, and it's been preserved and handed down, and now the priests that we have to baptize in the Spirit, they do that by laying on hands, and they do that because of the apostolic authority that has been passed down. And then you've got people like me, whose ecclesiology is much Wilder, like, anybody can do anything. And so so it sort of runs the gamut. Like, some people would say that the spirit comes at your water baptism, and some would say that those are separate things. And water baptism is purely symbolic. So you've got there's

Jessica Anderson: 44:33

one just say it just stopped altogether. And yeah, no longer

Kate Boyd: 44:37

Yes. So there's just like, a whole range. So it's definitely an interesting thing to look at, but it's something that we don't all agree on. For sure.

Jessica Anderson: 44:50

There was one other thing when I started to look into some baptism, um, you know it because it didn't seem abnormal for people to be like, Sure, I'll go get baptized by John and Sure. I'll get baptized. And then, so I started to look into why that wasn't, it just seems normal to them. And it's because it was part of not baptism itself. They, I'm gonna butcher this and I apologize for anyone listening, mikvah make their mikvah, mcfa Um, this the immersion to become ritually clean, first given to the priests before they enter the tabernacle, and then or before they enter the tabernacle, and then later for everyone entering the temple. But I guess it was cool for me to look into mikvah meaning. One translation is living waters, and then to know that Jesus had called himself to living water. being baptized in his name, he, the living waters was him ritually cleaning us. So that was just in looking into baptism and stuff. That was something that I that I found that was a little fun.

Kate Boyd: 46:05

For me. I love when you come up across things like that, and you're like, wait a minute. Yeah, I got it. Let me look further, like the story of my life.

Jessica Anderson: 46:17

Hence, my scatterbrained Ness.

Kate Boyd: 46:20

I mean, it's, it's true. And I think that's what's interesting about x is that you're getting history, but you're also getting like, you're getting a picture of the practice of theology, like not even, like you're sort of seeing it happen, but you're also seeing what they do with it. And so it's really an interesting way, it's an interesting entry point into a lot of those things, because they're new for them here to write. And so seeing it from there, and then trying to like, trace and figure out and looking into stuff it can be, it can definitely consume a few days of your time.

Jessica Anderson: 47:03

So it definitely makes me want I went and looked in Hebrews 6132. It's like, it says, um, you know, let's put aside some of the more, I guess, childish ways, from that we've had from the beginning. Um, you know, we don't need to lay the foundations anymore for it goes through like baptism, laying of hands, repentance of sins, and one a couple other things. And part of me was like, No, we need to look any right just a little bit more. Just give us a little bit, a little

Kate Boyd: 47:35

bit more, more clarity would be great. Thank you.

Jessica Anderson: 47:40

Obviously, God has a reason for not recording those exact deeds, you know, all of those exact details exactly. Like looking through all of this, I was like, why?

Kate Boyd: 47:52

Oh, yeah. Just in all the places you want the Bible to be clear. rarely ever. Alright, chapter 20. Sara, are you ready for your recap?

Sarah Kinzer: 48:07

I am. So Paul is like, boy, that was a lot. That whole riot thing was a lot. So yeah, calls the believers to him. And he's like, Buck up, fellas. He encourages them. And then he then he says, bye, like, feel better. I'm out. And he heads off to Macedonia. And on his way, he's encouraging people. And he travels down to Greece. And he stays there for three months. And he's preparing to sail back to Syria, when he discovers that there's this plot against him. And so instead of going, shooting straight across, he goes back up along the coast. And it lists several people who were traveling with him. And then it moves us into his final visit to trow ass tro ass where he, where we have this story that I feel like is pretty familiar about you to kiss and who is the fella who falls asleep and tips out the window and dies, while Paul is preaching. Which I went way off into that story. And I'm so excited to talk about

Kate Boyd: 49:26

it. Oh, good. I can't wait to hear. So my

Jessica Anderson: 49:29

biggest question

Sarah Kinzer: 49:31

for you turns out to that guy. And then Paul keeps going and he doesn't stop to talk to he decides to sail past episodes and he didn't want to stop there because he's trying to make it back for the festival of Pentecost and it wasn't like he was being rude or anything. It was just like if I stop there, I'm going to get stuck. And so he goes a little bit up the road and he calls for those leaders to come to him because he's still really want to meet with them. And then the rest of the chapter is where the where the elders have come. And he is speaking his final words to them. And at the end, he kneels with them. And he prays with them, and they cry and embrace. And they, they were sad, because he says he knows he's going on, and he's not going to see them again. Yeah. So that is chapter 20.

Kate Boyd: 50:33

Yeah. So we're gonna start with his Macedonia and Greece. trip here. Anything in this little segment, before we get to before we get to unicus? that stood out to you.

Sarah Kinzer: 50:56

Yeah. The first time I read it through it was like, here's where he went and name name, name, name, name, name. And there's where they went after that. And I,

Kate Boyd: 51:06

yeah, it's easy for your eyes to glaze over with like, the long list of thing. But I read a little bit.

Sarah Kinzer: 51:11

When I, when I read it with a commentary, it talked about how like, a Ristic or rusticus. And second is like, the first one's name is connected to air stockers see. And the second one's named second us is a name that they would have given to kind of a second rate slave. And so in that list of names, you have evidence of the diversity that was in the new church that, that you have this, someone from high station and someone from low station, they were just traveling together. And so I have been, in my own personal reading, you know, kind of, I've been going through the Old Testament, and you get into those long lists of names. And it can be really easy to just be like, and bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla, story time, you know, like, just skip over the names. And but if you pause, and you just say what, who are these people? Like they told us who these people were for a reason. And to, to just have that in their names alone speaks to the difference in the uniqueness of the church.

Kate Boyd: 52:26

Yeah, I love that. And that's one thing I've been learning too, as I'm learning the languages, especially Hebrew, like a lot of the names mean. And I think everybody's name means something. But like, when you see the words that are mashed up to make people's names, you're like, oh, yeah, that's interesting. And so it is. That is something I don't know, I would love to see a book about like, what all the names from the Bible mean, because that's like a really interesting rabbit hole, you could easily go down.

Sarah Kinzer: 52:57

My name means princess, but I'm not a literal princess. But like, the names in the Bible actually. are more about like, who the person is.

Kate Boyd: 53:08

Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so tro as he heads the tro, as Paul goes on a, on a, on a, on a long teaching day and pour you to kiss in this probably, you know, hot room sitting by the window. And things do not go well for him.

Sarah Kinzer: 53:40

So, I thought when I was reading this, I thought to myself, like what's the chance that there's more to this story of uniqueness than just like a joke about long winded sermonize ors, you know? Yeah, like, I think we have such a set image of what was happening there. But it wasn't like there were pews. And this was some sort of all night long Sunday morning, church service. And word they used to describe the situation indicates like it's less of a sermon, more of a dialogue. So the believers there had lots of questions. And Paul had these answers. And they gathered for this meal, which would have been more than just like, we think of the Lord's Supper communion as being like, a sip of juice and like an oyster cracker, you know, come together for a meal. And yeah, and so as I was reading about you to kiss how he how he falls asleep, like I remember being a young Christian. And like beating myself up over falling asleep reading the Bible, and I know other people who do the same like we we'd be like, Well, I was trying to have my quiet time in the evening, but I keep falling asleep. So I started doing it in the morning, but then I just fall back asleep. And then then I just cry to God like I'm so sorry that I'm so awful. that when I read the Bible I fall asleep. But unicus falls asleep. And when Paul revives him, he doesn't rebuke him. Like, yeah, not that his falling asleep was sinful. He's, he isn't revived and told to repent. He's resurrected and celebrated and brought back inside. And like when I thought about that, I thought I remember when it occurred to me that maybe God isn't mad at me for falling asleep reading the Bible, like maybe it's more like a parent reading a child a bedtime story, like maybe he's okay, that reading His words settled me so much that I could relax and fall asleep. And in that time, in my life, I was I had so much anxiety. So like, being in a place where something would put me to sleep was unique, I guess. I read the word all the time at that point. And I just can't imagine that God extended grace to me only to sit there and like, keep track keep score of how well I read the Bible at what time of day.

Kate Boyd: 56:10

Yeah, I remember. So I used to, I wouldn't fall asleep reading the Bible, but I would fall asleep praying a lot. And I remember reading in college, a book by John Ortberg. I can't remember the exact name of it. But it's the one about love, like, in the love of God. And in in there, he mentions like, what better place to fall asleep then praying and being in the presence of God. Like that's, like, don't feel bad about that. That's maybe the best place to fall asleep, you know, and I was like, Thank you, that makes me feel so much better. Syria, I'm trying. It's all like I'm trying to fall asleep. It happens. I'm a tired person. And so that was really helpful for me. And so I like, I like that. And like you said, Paul, didn't resent you because for falling asleep, he just he picked him up. He scooped him up in his arms, right? And he's like, come on back in. And he's alive again. Yeah, and,

Sarah Kinzer: 57:11

and the other thing like you to kiss didn't have access to a Bible. Like he just had the spoken word of other believers. And so Paul comes into town, and he leaves it the opportunity to come and eat with this guy and talk to this guy and to ask us questions. And like, I thought, do we come? Do I come to the word like that? Do I come hoping to learn and hoping to ask questions? And do I come to the word in a way that is communal? And bonds us? Bonds me with other believers? You know, am I coming hungry? And hoping for clarification. And so thinking through that made me it part of me, it makes me realize, like what a treasure scripture is. And also, it reminds me that you know, there was a time where a long portion of the history of the church where people couldn't read the Word. And like, yeah, what would that have been, like, you know, and how their faith. So even when we're, we're, when I would be tempted to be down on myself, because I fell asleep reading the Bible, like, was I living and, and interacting and hungering for the Word of God? regularly?

Kate Boyd: 58:30

Yeah. Well, I think that's the other thing, too, we sort of lose, like, I think we have very much We've very privatized our relationship to Scripture, in the sense, like, it is my individual responsibility to read it every day, and to take it in every day. And do this on my own. When that was, like, not even an expectation that they would have had for themselves, like, if they were working and stuff, they may not have been able to go to the synagogue every day and learn, and maybe they did, but maybe they did it. And when they did, they certainly didn't sit there by themselves, but it was read to them and it was taught to them or in discussions, you know, after they would teach, there was opportunity to ask questions and to learn together. And so it's interesting to me because of the distance of our, you know, time and culture, how we've really upended and, or approached scripture very differently than they would have even considered because, you know, it was on scrolls in the synagogue people didn't have copies to walk around. You know, I've got it on my phone now. And I can read it in a couple of languages now, like, that's different. It's not the same. And so it's really interesting to think about the different dynamics and how that may be affecting how we interact with each other and with our faith and as a whole? Well, I think about that a

Jessica Anderson: 1:00:02

lot. Yeah. When even when you think about, like, what quiet times had to look, I mean, when you were spending time with God before unless you were, like you said in the synagogue or very wealthy, you didn't have a scroll to go like reading you were spending time with God, he was still revealing himself. Obviously he revealed himself to mold to Abraham before any of it was written down, you know? Sure. So I honestly, I think that that gives me so much. I'm very, I'm very grateful for scripture, as the written word of God, and then also inspires, like, gives me hope that God still reveals Himself through His people, and that, you know, like you said, the community and that, that game discussing with others, and you're right, like it kind of just up ended, it's my responsibility to know exactly who God is. And not that it's not our individual responsibility. But I like how you said it kind of offended that.

Kate Boyd: 1:01:15

Yeah, I mean, because even when they would stay, when they would do things by themselves, right, it would be like prayer. So it's like prayer, and people were their encounters with God a lot of the time, and then that's or that, and that was either private or public. But it was, it's interesting to me that we've sort of like, just decided, there's another way to do it. And, and it's fine, there is I absolutely think that there's value in reading the Bible by yours, you know, in private, and the Holy Spirit is with you. So we have a different kind of encounter with God, then save the Old Testament, or some of these Jewish people may have had in this context. And so I don't want to dismiss that altogether. But I do think it is important, which things we have made the most important interaction with God, when when we look at Scripture, that wasn't an option, and so on, and then when we look around the world, right, that's not an option for everyone. So how do we then structure our faith in a way that accommodates that make space for for it to be available to other people in a way that is beyond our, you know, 21st century American paradigm? You know, yeah, yeah.

Sarah Kinzer: 1:02:39

And I also looked at that situation from, from Paul's point of view, and like, they're, they're in a, so the word that they use is not like, it's not like, and then he gave a sermon, it's the word that we get dialogue from. And so he was accepting questions. And I thought, like, when we preach the Word, or when we, when we go to people with the gospel, are we listening for their questions, because that's what Paul did. Are we attuned to the needs of those people in front of us, and for when the circumstances of their lives need us to move and act in their best interest, so they don't like fall away right in front of us while we go on talking about the power of God, like, Paul is talking about resurrection, and he probably like, the number of times that they have to explain resurrection in the, in the letters where it's like, listen, let's go back to this resurrection thing. Like, it's, it's the real deal. Like imagine, he's there answering questions about the resurrection, and telling people the powerful miracles that Jesus did, but if he had just ignored the need for the exact miracle that was right in front of him, but he didn't, he's, he's, he could have been telling them about the resurrection, and then gone and showed them like, this is the power of God. And they see this guy yet and raised up and, and I think like, we do it all the time, where we preach on justice and do nothing, or we preach on mercy and do nothing, we preach on Grace, or and love and sacrifice and do nothing and, and like we, we might call it raising awareness, when God can raise the dead like, we preach new life and we ignore the death around us. There's, I mean, raising awareness. It's, it's important in it and it shifts conversation, but but at the end of the day, like, by the time the conversation has shifted, how many people have gone with their needs on that? You know, how many people fell out the window? And we just told them, we're going to shift the conversation so that the world knows that the dad can be raised. Like, sometimes you just got to put your hands on people and do a little raising Go up and carry them back in, you know? Yeah, celebrate. When we see people doing that work we should we should do with the rest of the people in that room did and celebrate it.

Jessica Anderson: 1:05:13

One thing that jumps out to me is how, at least when Luke is describing a lot of these miracles, and never seems to the people doing them, like, oh, my gosh, this happened, you know, I mean, he literally just picks up this guy, and then they're like, we went back upstairs, and we ate bread and started talking, and I talked until the sun came up, you know, it's not like, like the, to them being able to be kind of like a channel for God's power to do what he's going to to, you know, build His kingdom is a, I don't want to say a normalcy, because they obviously treat it with great reverence. But they're not shocked that God can do that.

Kate Boyd: 1:06:01

Yeah, well, and I would even say, Luke, and maybe even the gospel writers sort of use the fact that miracles were happening, exorcisms were happening as confirmation of truth being proclaimed, right, that this was the right thing, because you're also seeing these miracles happen. So it's sort of a both and in at least in this era. All right. So he leaves tro as and heads to mellitus. And into any sends a message to the elders of Ephesus. Which had a lot, which had a lot of good stuff in it. That's it. I think it's a very timely mess. For us now do Sarah, what sort of jumped out at you in this section?

Sarah Kinzer: 1:07:04

Um, well, it. Again, it made me think about the, like the sons, the the guys who were casting out the demons where he's where it's like, your heart isn't right, like your heart isn't. In this isn't real for you. And like, the warning that Paul gives these elders is to like, look out for those who would come up, kind of like those guys, the false teachers, and they would come from within, and try to lead people astray for their own profit or their own game. And where, when I read 19, and I saw the actions of the people from outside of the church, and Paul being less involved in, in relationships, or trying to work things out with those guys from the outside, and his focus, being more on encouraging those from within. Like, Paul doesn't spend his time saying, You need to be careful, because like, look, these guys came to kill me, and they're going to try to kill you. And he doesn't say the culture surrounding you lives, lives that are contrary to the gospel. So be careful that that stuff was taken for granted. Of course, the culture lived contrary to the Gospel. And of course, the people in that culture would rise up in silence, silence them, try to silence them. But he says, look out for the false teachers arising from within because the bigger danger was not to their life or their societal comfort, it was to the church from those who would represent themselves as leaders and would lead the church and lead Christians astray. And so where were in 19, it's like looking at the outside things when he comes to talk to the people, to the leaders. It's like look inside look inside your own hearts. And look inside the church and and be aware of, of who is who you are giving the ability to speak into the lives of others.

Kate Boyd: 1:09:30

Jessica, what did you see?

Jessica Anderson: 1:09:33

One of the things that you know, I feel like I keep hearing this the sheep among wolves in the church a lot lately. Almost used as an attack to whichever side you feel as though you're not on. It's one of the things that like when I found your the messy middle thing I was like, it just feels like we're just trying to take like everyone uses Is this and then the the tickling of the ears to say that the other side is just having their ears tickled? And are and are the sheep, the wolves among the sheep? Mm hmm. And so I know, in reading messages, it's kind of like, I mean, it's been 2000 years, and we've still got wolves. And we can't even identify them because we're just so busy, busy arguing about which ones are the wolves? Yeah. And so, I guess that's the one thing that really stuck out to me for this that's been kind of like a prayer, especially in the last couple of years being in America and, and I guess, having God like, check my own heart, because I want to define the wolves that I see. And then remembering like, he says, to be on your guard. Um, and then he never stops. You know, he's three years, he has warned them about this. But what you need to remember is that God has given you things and you should be pouring out to the weak, and it's better to give into them to receive. So be warned, don't be led astray. But this is more, this seems like a more important thing to focus on. When he he says later, in everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work, we must help the weak remembering the word of the Lord Jesus Himself. So be warned about the the wolves, but I, I guess I've just been very disheartened by how the church has just kind of like, not the whole church, but a lot of the herds just feels like they're just placing blame on both sides, instead of helping the weak and giving, you know, like, like you said earlier doing, not just preaching justice, but like doing justice, and not just preaching mercy, but being merciful. And so when I, when I read this, that's kind of what I'm reminded, reminded us

Sarah Kinzer: 1:12:09

be like, it'd be like looking out the window, hole down it dead you to guess and being like, Well, if he hadn't done XYZ, he wouldn't have fallen, well, maybe you cook the wrong food? Well, maybe you turned that who turned the heat up so high. And now we're in this position, and let's talk about how we got in this position and things that could be changed. And Paul just went down and was like, It's fine. It's fine. He's gonna be fine. Look, he's fine. We're going back inside, let's just go.

Jessica Anderson: 1:12:36

Eat, which I guess is humanity. Because when you really think about even the beginning in the choices that were made, in the beginning story, Adam and Eve both blame each other. And she blames that, you know, they just all or they just can't get over that everything else is someone else's fault. Instead of actually like sitting down together and saying, Okay, how could we? This is what's happening right now, how can we go about fixing it?

Kate Boyd: 1:13:05

Yeah. And I think to that, before he even gets to, you know, keep watch over yourself and keep watching over the cheap, right? He's talking about how he lived, right? Like, his whole credibility is, you know, you know, me, I've been super transparent the two years that I was with you. You have seen what I've done, I've proclaimed the message in public, in private, I've told everyone about repentance that I could. And now I'm doing the next thing that the spirit has for me. And since it's the last time I'm going to see you, here's the things to look out for. But even those things, right, like, are against this backdrop of his credibility in his story. And so he when he's saying, do these things, he's kind of saying, do like I did for you for these people. And so it which is very active and, and a doing kind of thing, not just a teaching about stuff, but he went and was with people and so I think that's really interesting, too. And then it also made me wonder when he was talking about like, keep yourselves and keep watch over the flock. And if that wasn't just sort of like an an external attack, you know, but maybe an internal thing to like, keep watch over yourselves so that you don't fall into things, you know, so that you don't become a wolf potentially. Like I do think there is both internal and external threat in what he in what he was trying to point out. And I think there's there's a lot to be learned from that too. But yeah, I mean, I am just, I'm very moved that like, they're very the way that he went about this. And he knows like he's like it says there he knows is the last time he's gonna see these people or talk to them. And so he takes a lot of time to give on his last wisdom, and this is what he says, which I think makes it extra poignant. And so in their response to him, they were aggrieved, you know, he wasn't some disembodied, like big head, like that just sort of like blows into town and then left, like, he was part of their lives, they knew him really well, and they respected him. And so, I mean, yeah, I guess I would hope for such a send off to, you know, like that, to been a part of live. And I think that's sort of goes back to what we were talking about, I guess, in. And maybe it was earlier in 19. Just the timestamps that were given, it's very clear that he didn't just sort of like tangentially know, these people he was with them, and a part of them.

Sarah Kinzer: 1:16:15

That, where it describes that they're crying, and embracing and kissing him and saying goodbye, and they're sad to see him go. Like, there, there are moments where you just were, I just stopped and I go, like, the difference in Paul is so deep, like, these are people that he would have hunted and tortured and killed them. And the grace of Christians to accept and love and learn from someone who had done those things. I'm, that is one aspect of Paul's story that always makes me stop and go like to consider how, how deep. The, I mean, when we say new creation, it's new creation, like, a person is made new. And how often? Is it like, here's a new creation that I am still mad about the old or that I'm still? And in what ways am I like, I'm a new creation, but maybe I'm not. You know, from both directions, like Paul is Paul is walking in his new creation, you know, and they're letting him they're accepting him that way. And it's just, it's beautiful.

Kate Boyd: 1:17:43

Yeah, I mean, when you sort of look at the life of Paul, and all the times that he talks about being a new creation and being made and being transformed. I mean, it really gives like, extra perspective, I feel like because it's easy to say, oh, yeah, you're new, but he's like, No, I'm legit a different person. Like you have no idea. All right. Jessica, what are your me thoughts and your week thoughts?

Jessica Anderson: 1:18:18

So my me thought, I guess it's kind of a we thought, um, but just seeing the spirit move through people throughout the chapters of acts in general. Just asking myself, like, am I open to allowing God to work through me and overflow? Any way that's going to bring Him glory? Um, or am I more comfortable sitting in my baptism of repentance? was kind of like my, you know, obviously, the people who are baptized in John's name didn't know any better, but am I kind of comfortable sitting in my repentance and saying, I'm forgiven? Or am I going to go out and embrace the spirit and embrace Jesus and allow God to really work through me there was I listened to a few different commentaries and one eye, one kind of quote that stuck out to me was Chuck Smith. He said, Too many of us are merely vessels holding God instead of channels, allowing God to flow through us to the world around us. So I know there's debate on what that flowing through is, whether it's tongues or, you know, healings, or or anything like that, but I think the ultimate thing is that it's going to show God's glory and that it's going to show love to others. Like those are the things that should be happening if you're allowing God to flow through you. And so just kind of asking that if myself and and having to do that on a more than daily basis.

Kate Boyd: 1:20:04

Yeah. Do you think that goes with your we thought too?

Jessica Anderson: 1:20:08

Yeah, I, it was kind of like a just as I guess as the church, are we? Yeah. Are we being the body? Are we being the church? Or are we merely consuming and holding? I guess? Yeah, he's like,

Kate Boyd: 1:20:26

No, I like that. Sarah, how about you?

Sarah Kinzer: 1:20:29

So, my me thought like, was that I should just be so careful about my own intentions and my own heart, like Paul advise the, the leaders and, and, you know, the the problem that those guys ran into with the demon like this is not who you are so is am I am I speaking in my living? Am I preaching? am I teaching out of like the overflow of what God has done in my life and honest genuine faith? Or am I doing it for likes and for popularity and for whatever. But, but also like, if I can honestly say that my intentions are good, then I can I can be confident like Paul was confident. And when he speaks to the, to the elders, it wasn't like a bragging, it wasn't false confidence. And it wasn't like he was trying to explain why it was okay for him to be like famous and stuff when other people weren't like he had checked his heart. And he had been obedient and he had just gone on. Because I think it really like, there was a long time of my life that that pride was a really big struggle for me, like really big. And I have a, I think what I would call a healthy fear of it, you know, and I don't ever want to go back to be the kind of person I used to be. But, and so sometimes I'm afraid to just act because what if I get prideful? And it's like, you know, Paul, Paul had things that he was proud about before. Like you said, you know, I had all the, all the marks of a that matter. I have all the credentials and everything. But that's nothing compared to knowing Jesus. And he lived that out and just did the things he was asked to do. So that was my main thought was to keep my heart in check, but also just to act obedient and not be scared. And my we thought was, you know, to be more concerned with the false teachers within the church than the threat from the outside. But to not forget our first love because when we we read about the church in Ephesus in Revelation, we see that they've been committed, commended for holding up under hard circumstances and for dealing with false teachers like they did what Paul told them to do. But the warning they get is that they have abandoned their first love. So we should do these sorts of things. We should be on guard and continue on despite pushback. But in our we shouldn't get so wrapped up in a hunt to take down bad guys, either from within or without that we forget about that. We forget that taking down bad guys isn't the gospel.

Kate Boyd: 1:23:56

Yeah, it's not the point.

Jessica Anderson: 1:23:58

Yeah, that sorry, I know that we're kind of wrapping up. But that reminds me of like, can't remember which chapter it is where the woman is, like, the this slave who tells the future is behind them shouting over and over the truth about what they're doing, which I don't understand why she would be provoked to explain that but and he lets it go for three days. Before he's finally like, Okay, we're gonna stop this now. But that he doesn't feel compelled. Like you said that we should be aware of those like, obviously, that's a false prophet, but we should be aware of those things from within and hold them accountable, but like to discern when it needs to happen and who it needs happen by? Yeah, yeah. It's a fine line to hold to.

Kate Boyd: 1:24:53

Yeah, and I think it's sort of like a list of priorities right? Like, it's not that you can't look for those things. But if you do that, to the exclusion of looking at yourself and looking at your people clearly, right, if you're only looking for outside threats, you're gonna miss the ones that are right in front of you that are inside. And sometimes those are more dangerous, or sometimes the outside threats are dangerous in a different way. Like maybe they threaten you physically. But if we don't believe that the physical is the worst bit, you know, any mean, so it's sort of like, I don't know. And I know that that's hard, because physical and spiritual are so wrapped up together, but it is sort of like a, how do we order this, our concern so that we are appropriately concerned for these things, and not blowing one up over the other, because I do think you can sort of be too concerned internally to

Sarah Kinzer: 1:25:51

be consumed by it, you can be consumed by exposing, exposing things that that is what you get so wrapped up in it and, and holding people accountable, but we're supposed to be holding people accountable to the law of love. And if in holding people accountable to the law of love, we lose, all have our own love, like, yeah, lost it, it doesn't matter that we're holding them accountable. If, if we have lost the law of love, if we have lost grace, and we can't extend grace to others, it's just us looking out the window. At a dead guy on the ground, when we've got the resurrected Savior, you know, we've got the power to do something, there's, it's just looking down and be like, oh, somebody died, and it's somebody's fault. It, like, move on and act on it. And, and move confidently, because that's the power of Christ, the power of Christ is the power to, to raise the dead to change lives to transform people completely and to make enemies into people who would weep at seeing the other one go.

Kate Boyd: 1:27:08

Yeah. So I would say my me thought I am really just sort of, like, inspired by Paul's sort of commitment and embeddedness in a place. And even his sort of appealed to his transparency while he was there. So just thinking about how I want to be in a community is, you know, committed and transparent. And, you know, there for as long as God wants me there, right, but to not hold myself back from community because that's something I'm, that's something I do, I isolate if things get uncomfortable. But sometimes the point is to be a little uncomfortable. And so that can be a challenge. So just thinking about that, and, and even if I know that I may not be somewhere forever, not letting that be a reason that I'm not fully engaging in that place. So my we thought kind of goes back to our whole discussion on, you know, how people expected to encounter God in and outside of the Bible, which I think is something that we forget about some time. So really just like encouraging people or encouraging whatever community I'm a part of, to remember people in prayer, and so that it's not just this, so that we're pursuing God together and not just like individually and then bringing that to our group, though, that's fine, but also to be in a community doing these things together. And to have that expectation. I think it's something that I would love to see more as a wee thing, versus even that sort of expecting to encounter God on a purely individual level. So I think that is what I'm going to sort of take with me and look and encourage for other people to do. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you enjoyed this discussion, I would love it if you would rate and review the show on your favorite podcast player. You know the drill. This helps more people find the show and learn with us as we talk through Scripture. And then I would love if you came over on social media to talk about what your big takeaways were, what your me thought and we thought were from our discussion, or for when you dove into these chapters. You can find me on Instagram at Kate boyd.co and on Twitter at v Kate Boyd. And don't forget to check the show notes to find and follow today's distributors thank you for joining us.