Untidy Faith

1 Samuel 1 & 2 | What is Sin?

January 23, 2023 Kate Boyd | Author of An Untidy Faith Season 6 Episode 2
1 Samuel 1 & 2 | What is Sin?
Untidy Faith
More Info
Untidy Faith
1 Samuel 1 & 2 | What is Sin?
Jan 23, 2023 Season 6 Episode 2
Kate Boyd | Author of An Untidy Faith

In today's episode, we talk through 1 Samuel 1-2 and ...

  • Barrenness, bitter rivalries, and biblical callbacks
  • Samuel as a tabernacle toddler
  • What and how does God “take note” of?
  • What exactly was the sin of Hophni and Phineas?
  • Unpacking sin and its consequences in the Bible and in ourselves 


Kate Boyd - Book | Newsletter | Instagram | Twitter

Show Notes Transcript

In today's episode, we talk through 1 Samuel 1-2 and ...

  • Barrenness, bitter rivalries, and biblical callbacks
  • Samuel as a tabernacle toddler
  • What and how does God “take note” of?
  • What exactly was the sin of Hophni and Phineas?
  • Unpacking sin and its consequences in the Bible and in ourselves 


Kate Boyd - Book | Newsletter | Instagram | Twitter

Kate Boyd:

You're listening to happy and holy. The podcast for scripture comes to life through a small group discussion. This season, we're taking it all the way back to the Hebrew Bible with a lock through First Samuel, and you get to be a fly on the wall to see what new things we learn with and from one another as we engage scripture in community. I'm your host, Kate Boyd. I'm a disciple maker, writer and speaker who is making space in the church for Christians caught in the messy middle between conservative and progressive, between loving the church and leaving it. We love Jesus love people and work with God and each other for a better world. Welcome to the show. Are you disentangling your faith from the culture around you? The greatest tool in that journey for me was the Bible itself. You've probably noticed that here on the show, we love the Bible, and we take it seriously. But that doesn't mean we always take it literally. So that also means that meaning can get a little complicated, but you don't have to let that overwhelm you. I put together the big picture Bible toolkit to help you understand how all of Scripture fits together in one incredible story. Learn some new questions to ask to get it meaning without getting overwhelmed and see new connections between Old and New Testaments with a special Bible reading plan. If you're ready to get back to basics of your faith, the Bible is a great place to start. And the big picture Bible toolkit can help get yours today free at Kate boyd.co/bible. On today's episode, we finally dive in to the chapters. The first chapters of First Samuel, and we are going to talk about what God takes note of we are going to imagine Samuels life as a tabernacle dwelling toddler. And we're going to talk a little bit about what sin is and what shape it takes in the stories of First Samuel one and two. And it was a really interesting discussion, discussion. And I look forward to sharing it with you. So let's go. Welcome everybody to our season. About First Samuel. This is our first episode. Well, first, Daniel. Yes, it's very exciting. And I'm with my co hosts, Amanda and Robert.

Robert Callahan:

Let's go.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah. And we're, yeah, we're just gonna kind of jump in because there's, there's lots of, there's a little there's quite a bit to cover. Actually, in these like two chapters. There were a lot of little stories. Um, so First Samuel one actually starts with the story of Hannah, which I feel like Hannah and Cena, which I feel like it's pretty well known. Hannah is clear in her husband also has another wife who has lots of kids and rubs it in Hannah's face. And Hannah gets obviously sad she goes and she prays about it during the festival. And then she sees UI who's the high priest judge guy, and he comes over and you know, tries to admonish her because you think she's drunk? And she's like, No, bro, I'm not drunk. I'm just praying. And so then he's like, great, you'll be blessed. And she ends. School, and then she ends up having it she ends up you know, pregnant. So we'll stop there. Boiler alert.

Robert Callahan:

This is all coming out. Yeah, this what the story is exactly what the story is. Is just sounds so

Kate Boyd:

could be you I did not make her pregnant. She went home with her husband. I feel like that's sort of got lost. In case you're wondering. Though, yeah, Amanda, what stood out to you in Hannah's story

Amanda Waldron:

well as actually been thinking about something you said last week, Robert, and had to go back and reread the text around whether right was the perceived or the tension between Hannah and I'm not sure how to pronounce it maybe was asked was it real tension. But then I the version I had said tonight I made fun of Hannah. So probably that tension was real, right? Like that wounding of here's this thing that I've wanted for so long. I can't have it and somebody Yeah, rubbing that in my face.

Kate Boyd:

Some stuff I was reading was even saying that it's possible that it's because Hannah was barren that her husband married another woman. And so it's sort of like extra like he loved Hannah. We get that from the story loved her a lot so much. He's like, doing extra right but um, At the same time, he's like, but I gotta do my thing. Like, I gotta continue to line. And so, yeah, and Nene was like, really, really taking that to her head. What

Robert Callahan:

feels so weird for me about this whole situation, the setup of the rivalry between them is that I get it that this is a this is a patriarchal society where the value of women is having children and creating airs. And, you know, if you're, if you're a woman, and you want to have a child and you envision and that for such a long time like that super hurtful to have someone making fun of you, I just, I feel like it's a weird flex for tonight, pin and nya. And then in the Panini, it's a weird flex for her to be like, Oh, I'm able to have children in the desert without medication in the ancient world where everything is painful, and like it hurts, and my recovery is super hard. And you can't go through that pain. Like, I don't know, I'm not a woman. So I don't know, you know what, that if those things balance out, but I would just think that if I was in Hannah's position, I'll be kind of like, I would rather not go through that.

Kate Boyd:

I mean, I famously have decided not to have children. And I cannot I cannot say that, you know, the child birthing process did not factor into that decision personally, like, it just sounds horrible. God bless all the women who do that I, it sounds terrible. But I think to, like, not just the bigotry, our whole society, but that, well, maybe it is because of patriarchy. But I think it's that, you know, women's value, their honor, right? Was it was in being able to have children. And so yeah, it's one of those like, you can you can flex that. Because even though it's hard, right, at least you are, you have the honor. And I think too, in this sort of society, and you kind of get this as we go through the chapters too, but there is a sort of like, throughout the Hebrew Bible, this Meryton that, you know, if you are righteous, things go well for you. And, you know, and if you are not, things don't and I think we see some of that in the stories too. Which leads to some like really tricky. theological dynamics, I feel like, but there is sort of this sense of that in this story, too. Because, you know, and even then, if a woman wasn't able to have children, it wasn't because there was like, a medical thing, right? It was that God had closed her womb, like it was a judgment in a way. And so there's a lot wrapped up, like, emotionally and mentally II with this physical ability for a woman to which I don't think we've completely escaped from to be honest. But I also wonder about

Amanda Waldron:

the, like this jealousy aspect to this, right? Like, Naya probably sees that she is not the favorite wife, and her being able to say, right, like the sense of when people are jealous, they strike out at one another. They can pick up on your shame, and yeah, try to exploit that. And so I just feels like this was not a good situation for anyone and involves a lot of a lot of family dynamic.

Kate Boyd:

Well, and Elkanah is not exactly helping either, right? Like, he's my favorite way. Yeah, I love you. Let me give you the extra even though you don't have all the babies, you know, to use. And so I don't think he's trying to mediate this. He's actually I think he's trying to like be neutral right in the situation. But he's not actually doing anything to help when I think he could probably mediate some of this a little better. It kind of reminds me of Abraham and Hagar and Clara the same sort of thing happens. Yes. Right with the kids. Yeah, only that's like the kids fighting in the hay cars is sort of taunting Sarah and stuff like that. And Abraham's like, law. I don't know whatever you want. Get it together, guys. Like you're supposed to be like, helping people here. Yeah.

Amanda Waldron:

I was getting like Rachel Leah. Bye It was of like, second favorite wife for giving me children. But I actually like this woman.

Kate Boyd:

Totally. And I think that's partly intentional. Because I think the idea of her being a barren woman, like it reminds us of all those stories of the women. Right and hold back. Yeah, I think there is a lot that they are building off of. So I'm not surprised that we sort of get those vibes from all of this. Yeah.

Robert Callahan:

Well, I just had a thought like, I just wonder if that I wonder how it lands on the listeners in the first century church that there's like, we said, these these Rachel Leia vibes, there's this. I feel kind of like, when we get to the point where there's the dedication of Samuel, I get sort of Abraham Isaac vibes. And then we have later Jesus, who were learning was begotten of Mary, and she wasn't barren, but she was a virgin. I just kind of wonder how the first century readers word or hearers, of all of this would have heard those things and what kind of connections they would make?

Kate Boyd:

I mean, considering a lot of the earliest ones weren't Jewish people, I think they would pick up on a lot of that. And certainly, things like this would be called forth like, you know, and, and reappropriated into Christian theology versus Jewish theology by the New Testament writers. Yeah, I mean, I think, given the say, sort of met at the temple, or the synagogue, before they got kicked out of all those places, their scriptures were the Hebrew Scriptures. You know, they didn't have the New Testament. And so it was being formed in that in that time. And so I would not be surprised if they had a lot of that those reference points, because it was pretty common for them. At least the Jewish ones, I'm not sure about how familiar the Gentile believers would have.

Amanda Waldron:

Yeah, what would that have sounded like if they're like, Hey, we've seen these themes before. The story sounds similar.

Kate Boyd:

But in the same way, it's what's really interesting to you. And something that I've learned over the last few years is that like, a lot of the stories that we have in the Hebrew Bible are similar to stories in other ancient Near Eastern, like contexts. And so they are not all. They are familiar sort of like structures, often with some twists on them, right. And so like the creation story, similar to other creation stories, one of the main differences is that everyone is made in the image of God and is given the dignity of that, and not just right, every person, male and female. So it's stuff like that, that, and even Abraham and Isaac, right, like, part of when you compare that to other stories, part of that is that Abraham, or God stops that because that's not the kind of God that He is, the sacrificing your kid would not be out of the ordinary or the gods at the time. Like, I don't actually require that. And I wanted you to know that and it's kind of like a gesture. And so I think stories like this would probably be somewhat familiar, because there's similar tropes that are in other stories. But there may be some twist that differentiates this guy from others. I don't know what that is, but it's a good word. So, okay, so she is Sat Hana sad, obviously. And she's not hungry. And she and Elkanah is like trying to help her. But she gets up and, and goes to pray. And I'm trying to decide what it says about ELI that he can't tell whether she's praying or drunk. Yeah.

Robert Callahan:

Like his first, like, ask a question, my man, like, will you please step in and just say like, Hey, what are you doing? Or like, Can I help you? Or are you okay? Like, he just sees he sees her mounting from a distance, and he's like, Oh, great. She's drunk. I mean, I just, I don't know. Like, I just there's an assumption there that I feel like maybe let's just ask A question or two before you call judgment on someone that you've never met before. But having said that, you know, we live in the age of the internet, so we're not that much more sophisticated today.

Amanda Waldron:

There. My therapist brain goes to because later spoiler alert, later on, we learned that Eli's having some problems with his own family. He just had an encounter with his sons. They're not listening to him. He's like, Oh, I know. I know how I can have some power. I know. I can have somebody listen to me about this issue. Here I come. This is a situation I could fit. I'm projecting this onto you.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I mean, something I was reading was just like, it may be a sign that he's not actually very good at being like, not actually that connected as a leader or not very good, or like connected to God, which kind of makes sense as the story goes on. Right as we learn more about how his his kids are acting. And I was like, wow, I just never thought of that before. You know, apparently, it's unusual to pray silently. You would have been praying out loud. I guess it's not unusual for a woman to Ukraine, but apparently thinks silently was unusual. Oh, interests

Robert Callahan:

away me. So they're not allowed to speak out loud. And they're not allowed to pray silently. Got it. Okay.

Kate Boyd:

Cool. Cool. Yeah, so I was reading in the Jewish Annotated Bible, and so they were like, it wouldn't be unusual for a woman to be praying. But it would be unusual for a woman to be praying or for anybody to be praying silently. So I guess in the in the context, it's totally normal. It would have been kind of normal although she was there by herself rather than as part of like it. I don't know if there was like any sort of congregational gathering thing that's a question but yeah, so I it's just weird to me that like Silent mumbling comes across this drop like a strong I mean, it might weird but drunk feels strong.

Robert Callahan:

Right? And the fact that his his children are schmoozing with the women in the community. And like, those, those things, those are cool. The I'm not going to correct that. But praying mumbling quietly over there in the corner, like, No, we're not Not In Our Town. But we're gonna fix that

Kate Boyd:

here. And then she's like, No, that's not me. And he's like, all right. Go on peace.

Amanda Waldron:

Really sad.

Robert Callahan:

With a blessing?

Kate Boyd:

Yeah. Cool. They'll do

Amanda Waldron:

translations. In that case, cheer up. The guy that question asked, okay.

Kate Boyd:

And then my favorite, which I was posting on Twitter today. And then the woman went to recorders and ate and drank with her husband. She was no longer sad. I feel better when I have food to great. Yeah.

Amanda Waldron:

She had a burrito and the assurance of the Lord.

Kate Boyd:

Do you really need she conceived and bore a son named Samuel. His name means I have asked him of the Lord, which is interesting. So apparently, some people think that this this is I don't think it's got a lot of traction. But some people think that this might be a birth story of Saul. Because Saul and Samuel have the same Hebrew consonants because they're from the same root word in Hebrew for ask. She's so Samuel is like I have asked of the Lord. And Saul is sort of like a like you asked for it kind of thing or like to ask. I remember doing a Beth Moore study and she was like, it's sort of a joke because it's like you asked for it. So I don't think a lot of people think that but it is a theory that's out there. But at the very least, because later on there is some interplay between potentially between the two that there is like a it may be something to keep in mind as we move forward.

Robert Callahan:

So is the thought there that this is actually Saul's origin story and we're really learning nothing about Samuels origin there like that, that the stories are just completely Samuels, same as origin is just excluded. Basically sort

Kate Boyd:

of like the just I was getting is that this is like the said Salt birth story. Or maybe it's like salt pepper mix into Samuels origin. I don't know, it wasn't clear, they didn't talk about it much in the stuff that I was reading, but it was one of the things I was like, that's just a really that feels kind of out of left field. But yeah,

Robert Callahan:

you know, strangely though, I can get it like I feel like that makes it makes sense in my brain because Samuel is just sort of like this facilitating character like, like, we there's great pains that are taken for the author of the story to explain how he came to be his mom was barren. And, you know, there's this story about them going to Shiloh and the temple and all these things in the dedication, but then his, his exploits sort of there's, there's not like Elijah and Elijah, you know, like, where he's like the kind of like the main character, like, his exploits are sort of limited to being a mouthpiece and casting judgment, finding David later on and anointing him like he's, he's not sort of center stage. So I could kind of see how it would make more sense for Saul, who is later a more significant character, just from a literary perspective, for this to be more about his origin.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, I guess I can see that because it does feel like Why spend this kind of space on a supporting character like this is this is main character energy, right? Like, this is a main character intro. But it's used on someone that who is you know, obviously use it use the last judge of Israel, like there's a lot to him, but there's, yeah, he doesn't quite have the gravitas of like a Saul or David, which becomes center stage later. So yeah, females born. And then Samuel is leaned, and then to be dedicated to the word,

Robert Callahan:

can we can we pause on McQueen for a second? The the new, the new movie, careful, careful, careful, okay. The New Living Translation says several years later, that she returns with Eli after he's weaned. And so like, is this two years? Are we thinking is this four years? I mean, I'm, I'm assuming she's not taking an infant to the table to the temple. Yeah.

Kate Boyd:

It seems the stuff that I was reading says that it was maybe around that time, typically around three years, but it could be more or less than that. So yeah, he's definitely sort of like, he's, he's like toddlers. Yeah. Toddlers, developmental stages.

Amanda Waldron:

Struck me of like, I have a lot of toddlers in my life right now. Because that's just the stage that I have friends in and that stages with their kids and

Kate Boyd:

to think about a mom taking her toddler. I don't know, we don't know

Amanda Waldron:

how old he is. But he has adult children. And being like, Here you go. Your smile. raised him up in the Lord. Right, just stranger to me as the serious part of me thinks about it. From an attachment standpoint, the funny side of me thinks like,

Kate Boyd:

what a hilarious thing to be, like.

Amanda Waldron:

A toddler go and take care of.

Kate Boyd:

Like, Samuel doesn't have a choice in this. Yeah.

Amanda Waldron:

You get to see your mom once a year when she brings a little bright

Robert Callahan:

nights and weekends first, third and fifth Sunday of the month. Like it and this was the temple where Eli was a jerk. And so I mean, like it doesn't have to be this though. Are there no other locations? Right? Like, are there no other temples to which he can be taken? Like, I have so many questions.

Kate Boyd:

So this was the main place and this is really to be a tabernacle.

Amanda Waldron:

I remembered

Kate Boyd:

years later and like yeah that's a great question, dude.

Amanda Waldron:

handler who does?

Kate Boyd:

Oh, man, yeah. And like, I don't know he's not freaking out about it or anything. So like, is this something that a lot of people, I guess it's not something a lot of people did because it's like, it's It's a really intense bow to take but um,

Robert Callahan:

yeah, it's like other twin toddlers.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, just like running around. So

Amanda Waldron:

there are other moms of three year olds that are like, I want to take my kids

Robert Callahan:

yeah, yeah. Is it like the Jedi tempo like with the younglings? Like they just dropped the kids out. There's all these kids are just they're

Amanda Waldron:

just a daycare

Kate Boyd:

So, yeah, I'm

Amanda Waldron:

just thinking, yeah, toddler, Samuel. You know, crazy.

Kate Boyd:

And it's weird because like, I'm curious what it's like to grow up like that. Especially with like a notoriously bad priestly family. You know what I mean? Like, kids are not great. Not great. How did that? How did that

Amanda Waldron:

work? Was it just Eli and his sons? or were there other like, uncles cousins? Was it? How big would the family be that was running the temple?

Kate Boyd:

Yeah. Imagine it's like, the Levite tribe, right? Like, I don't think it's just

Amanda Waldron:

like one family from theirs.

Kate Boyd:

So it's probably like a clan, kind of, like an old clan that like a bad scary clan. Clan with the sea. You know, like, I think, um, yeah, like it. I know, it can't just be them. But I guess to skip ahead in the story, like, he does seem to be living in the same spaces then because of the way things happen. So I don't know. I'm very curious about this arrangement, on a lot of levels.

Robert Callahan:

While we have a moment, can we just can we just take a moment to plug in a drinking game that I think that we should play. So I have a bag of balls here and it doesn't have to be alcohol, you know, whatever your pleasure is. It can be vitamin, it could be like water, it could be orange juice or something like that. But a great game for everybody listening at home that you can play is if you hear this sound. It's me digging into a bag of hauls in order to try to satiate the the pain in my throat that I've been dealing with for the last 10 months worth of Central Texas allergy season. And it still hasn't passed and I don't usually sound like Cookie Monster imitating very white but here I am. And so if you hear that sound, that's fine, because you want you want to get vitamin C in your system really quick. You take a shot every time you hear that sound. Okay, sorry. No.

Kate Boyd:

I like it.

Amanda Waldron:

Everyone stay hydrated.

Kate Boyd:

And on an on another semi side note. So like verse 27. For this child, I have prayed how many like baby blankets. Have you seen that on your life? Okay, so, yeah, she brings them to the temple realize. I mean, I don't think Eli really says anything. It's just just like, drop them off. It is interesting. So apparently, her husband could have invalidated her bow. Like that's something that's like, alright, that he Oh, he can be like doesn't? Yeah, so like, if you look at numbers 30 If a woman makes a vowel about about whether that's like a wife or daughter, the man in charge, right can invalidate so her father or husband can invalidate that if he doesn't think it's wise. So it's interesting to me

Amanda Waldron:

that riles me up. I know. Well, I feel good about that.

Kate Boyd:

I feel some kind of way. So it's interesting to me that he, I don't know, I keep trying to decide like what it says about him that he respects her wishes, even though he knows that the child would make her happy. But also that she made this vow and so she's devoted to the Lord. And I don't know if it's his devotion to the Lord or His devotion to Hannah that is driving it. But, um, it's interesting to me that he didn't intervene and invalidate her vow. Like, I'm really curious what was behind that, whether that was like he wanted to respect Hana or like, you still wanted Hana all to himself for you know, I'm like, what are the brain dynamics of a person going through that?

Robert Callahan:

I could see how maybe he would think so now she's no longer barren like, the floodgates have been opened up. And so like, you know, one for me, one for God guy gets the first one, you know, but now I'm gonna have more More children through her. And I do think I mean, we've been laughing quite a bit. But I mean, I do know, my wife has given us three beautiful children. And I know that it would just be devastating to, to consider taking a child from your arms and then handing it over and just trusting it to a stranger. And so there's, I do want to honor that. that courage and that devotion, and in a kind of in in she's, she's giving her child not just to anyone, but specifically to ministry into the priesthood. And so I do kind of get like Mary vibes here where, you know, she, she has her son, Jesus, and she knows that she's, at least at some level, she knows that he's, he's not for this world and not for her. And she's got to keep an open hand with him. And then eventually, of course, seeing his ministry grow and the betrayal and then seeing him, you know, crucified, tortured, and having to give that to God. And, man, yeah, just, there's, there's something special to be said about Hannah, for sure.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, I mean, and I think that's part of the point of the story. Like, even if we are echoing Mary, right, she's chosen because of her devotion and faithfulness to God. And so I think, there, Hannah is absolutely not the only barren woman who prayed this prayer. But she is one of them that got it answered in the way that she was wanting it to be answered. And it doesn't even say that it was because of the vow that was answered. It was just sort of like, God answered the prayer. But she kept her bow. And so I think that is, there's a lot to be said, for who Hannah is between the lions, because of the way in which not only was it that she had the kid, but that she kept her word after having Samuel and I think that shows sort of like, the seriousness of her character before the Lord too.

Amanda Waldron:

Yeah, and right, like it also talks about the tension that she feels of the next year after he was born, the whole family went up and Hannah was like, let's just wait. Let's just wait until the baby's weaned. Yeah, cuz I imagine Yeah, that must have been heart wrenching, right like that complex a feeling of I want to honor my vow. But I wish it didn't have to be this way.

Kate Boyd:

Man, I felt like I stepped out a lot in my life. So in a way, Hannah is all of us having to give up the things that maybe we wanted for something. So when she leaves, Samuel there, there's a really lovely psalm of praise. But then also some like

Amanda Waldron:

jabs. Right, like, proud and haughty. And speak with such arrogance. I wonder who she's talking about?

Kate Boyd:

Oh, yeah. Go ahead.

Robert Callahan:

Well, yeah, I mean, like, at this point, the only person that has been introduced to us as a true enemy in the story, someone opposed to Hannah is Bernina. And so like, this whole song is like it's very much like shade. I feel like at her like, I mean, she's like, now I have an answer for my enemies. I rejoice because you have rescued me. Stop acting so proud and hotties don't speak with arrogance. The bow of the Mighty is now broken like dang. Like this is I mean, congratulations. I like i don't i don't know like it. It is a big deal in that she was barren and now she is having a child. But it is also not like this life and death struggle. You know, with like the like a war where like there's you know, a giant on the other side and I don't know maybe I'm entering dangerous territory. I'm probably Shut up as a as a as a recovering

Kate Boyd:

interesting, recovering toxic male. What's interesting is this doesn't feel like it. Like it makes sense. Right? Like this is like a warrior hymn. And at the end of it, so if you look at verse 10, one of the last couple We'll have lines a horrible jump to the ends of the earth, He will give strength to his king and exalt the power of his anointed. There's no king in Israel right now. So either either this is prophetic, or it's like a later edition, put in the, in the mouth of Hannah, which seems to be the consensus. Yeah,

Amanda Waldron:

that would make more sense. I did,

Kate Boyd:

because it doesn't fit. Like it is sort of like there are hymns like this from women, I sort of feel like Deborah, right. And judges has this great hint of like, this sort of feel this has like that vibe, but it doesn't feel like it applies to Hannah's situation at all. And then it has like emergencies, historical things that haven't happened yet. And so there's like, it's weird. I don't even catch that. It's, it's a weird situation. And so I don't know how to feel about that either. Because I'm like, I mean, apparently, so somebody wanted it here. So it's important that it's here. But it also doesn't make sense here.

Robert Callahan:

You know, this would make me this would make me really interested in this theory that we're actually talking about solids birth here. Because this stuff would be more applicable if we're talking about a prophetic a prophecy of a king.

Kate Boyd:

That's true. Interesting, maybe that's where they sort of get the idea. Yeah. But it is sort of it is all this like, you know, there is no God like ours. Yeah. Don't be arrogant or haughty. There. It's sort of like the Baron has born seven. So it is sort of like there is this victory, in that

Robert Callahan:

those who fight against the Lord will be shattered. Yeah, he thunders against them from heaven. The Lord judges throughout the earth. Like that's not that is not what it was like, in the Oh, our room when like we had our children.

Kate Boyd:

I mean, it's probably, it's probably not pretty, but don't feel like it's quite that

Amanda Waldron:

dramatic. You're cursing all your enemies. Well, yeah, you're probably

Kate Boyd:

doing that. I mean, again, haven't been through it. Don't plan on going through it. I do think it's interesting then that it's talking about all these like bad people and wicked people, because now we're going into Eli son. And so I think it's kind of also setting that piece up. Like these are learning data. Wayne, yeah, maybe these are the consequences of wickedness from the Lord. But it does. But I guess they were sort of like, their reputation was bad. So I suppose it's possible that Hannah heard all of that, about them and the sort of in judgment on them, but it doesn't feel like I feel like Hannah's a nice person, like a too nice person. And so this feels like it wouldn't. And maybe, I mean, I barely know. Like, I just feel like She's nicer you're the therapist.

Amanda Waldron:

I don't know what's your read on Hannah. Connecting to my own life you're diagnosed, decrypt petty part of myself. And I consider myself a nice person to so maybe that's like, that's my human side. We

Kate Boyd:

get to see we can see the pettiness pettiness within the praise, right? Like she's definitely thankful to the Lord. But she is also one

Amanda Waldron:

of the humble, but I also told you so.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, good. Anything else from her prayer before we move on to Hockney and Phineas?

Amanda Waldron:

Yeah, let's talk about these bad boys.

Kate Boyd:

Yes. Okay. We're moving into this sort of section where we sort of see Samuel and the sons of Eli contrasted. So I think there's supposed to be like a stark difference between them and the way that they're being set up from a character standpoint. And so, yeah, what are what are the wicked deeds of Eli, Eli's sons?

Robert Callahan:

So it talks about the fact that they they had no respect for the Lord right off the bat. Yeah. At least in the the translation I'm looking at is the New Living Translation. So verse 12, says, Now the sons of Eli were scoundrels who had no respect for the Lord, or for their duties as priests. Then the first example,

Kate Boyd:

yeah, I like the word scoundrel. Can we that's like a great word. You scandalized the word.

Unknown:

up to no good.

Robert Callahan:

Let's bring back scoundrel. I like that. And, uh, you know, I was expecting kind of like, it's been a while since I've read Samuel so I, you know, is like okay, there's scoundrels. So I was expecting to hear that they're cheating people and that they're robbing and it's like, and so what they would do is they would go whenever someone was cooking meat for the sacrifice, they would go and get the best part. Scoundrels. I get it, I get it. I understand the, you know, the buzz. It's funny that that is the is sort of like the first thing that the author decided our injection to them. Yeah.

Amanda Waldron:

Right, like a big deal that,

Robert Callahan:

yeah, they take the best part of the brisket every time.

Kate Boyd:

So what it sounds like is that, so when it comes to the meat, they're supposed to let all the fat like it's that offering. So they're supposed to let all that fall off. And so essentially, they were taking it before the Lord had his share. And so they just sort of like they had, they had no regard for the horse. They're like, it doesn't matter. He's not gonna eat it. We're gonna take it. And so they were taking it first.

Amanda Waldron:

Yeah, the three pronged fork was also an instrument used in sacrifices. And so they were,

Kate Boyd:

yeah, it's like, you know, if it's in fire, you got to move stuff around, like your fireplace poker. Yeah, your grill fork, or whatever.

Robert Callahan:

Yeah, and I mean, I guess to from the perspective of those who are trying to offer the sacrifice, like, they're, there's, they're ultimately stealing from God, but there's this injustice of like, you are taking what I have preserved for God and depriving me of my ability to dedicate it to the Lord. Yeah, you're, you're stealing, you're stealing my offering. And so it's not just like you're you're it's not that you're stealing from me. You want to take my clothes, because I mean, that's one thing. But like, I'm trying to give my best to God here and you're actually taking the thing from my hands before I can offer it to the Lord. Yeah, I can get that that would be pretty upsetting. Yeah. And there

Amanda Waldron:

almost seems to be the spirit of generosity, right? In verse 16, versus the man offering the sacrifice might reply, take as much as you want, but the fat must burn for like, must burn first. services now give it to me, or I'll take it by force.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, I was like, they're gonna get it later. But they're like, No, we're going to take it now. And so I think that is an interesting point, like, all the commentators made a big deal about, you know, them taking their portion before God, but didn't really talk about what it means. What it could potentially mean for the other people like we're offering in which I mean, I think the Lord honors the heart, right, but that if this is part of their, like, cultic sacrificial system that's supposed to like help bring them into right relationship with God and their take their defiling that sacrifice. Like, if there's efficacy there, then, you know, potentially they're messing with that, if that's how it works. You know, whether whatever that looks like, you know, I think that is, so they're not just messing with there. They're not just sitting themselves they're messing with a potential remedy to send for other people.

Robert Callahan:

Yeah, yeah. Like you there. Yeah. Like they're interfering with the the pathway that these people have to God. Like, I've got crops that need to be tended to. I have family members that need healing. I Addy and you are screwing with that my man like that's,

Kate Boyd:

yeah, I can get that. That Samuel. Samuel is a good guy. He's the Lord's helper. Mother made him a little robe.

Amanda Waldron:

Oh, that must have been a really special for her to Yeah. Right. Like, what a special task for her to do that for her son.

Kate Boyd:

Oh, now. And then I guess he was he was a good enough guy that he was like, well, maybe more, give you more of these. These guys. Not bad. And so they did. And I love the idea like in 21 mindsets, and the Lord took note of Hannah. Like, that's a really sweet line with all that the Lord it could be doing in the world. That moment, he took note of Hannah. And I just thought that again. It gives me those Hagar vibes right where she's like you really God who sees me And I, that's like one of my favorite things from the entire Bible. And so I love that that's like a little note. And unlike the sons who had no regard for the Lord Zeno grew up in the presence of the Lord then you like it's old,

Amanda Waldron:

wasn't very old.

Kate Boyd:

That's just that's the whole sentence. And he heard all the things that his sons were doing, man, you know, yeah, there's a lot to unpack here.

Robert Callahan:

Yeah, like he's very old, his sons are seducing the young women is the is what I'm getting from this translation. And so like, did he have children in old age? Or did or are these like grown men that are acting like, boys,

Kate Boyd:

I think they're grown up. But I also think, or at least they're of age. But I also think there's something potentially more insidious here is that they're like the women at the entrance to the tentative meeting, which could potentially be could potentially be prostitution. And it could be that because they're part of right the system of worship and guarding that holy space, it could be the day sort of, like, borrowed that practice, from, you know, the surrounding religions that practice some of that. So it could, it might just be not that they were laying with them, but they even sort of their score allowed it in the first place. So there's a lot of layers to that. Eli's reaction is weird. Not that like being mad is normal. But he's like, not mad about the sin. He's mad about the reputation. Good point, which I think goes back to like, I guess Eli is not that great. Of a priest like what is happening, that he's more concerned for the family name than he is for the service of the Lord, to be protected and done by them, or even for their fate, in that like, messing with the stuff of the Lord is clearly very serious, you know, because it was the will of the Lord to kill them, which I don't, I don't know if we want to get into that. But it's really like, if they sinned against the Lord, they can't intercede or they cannot do their job. They are out sinning. It's kind of goes back to that sacrificing, right, they're not able to. Anyway, I, Eli's reaction was really weird to me.

Robert Callahan:

I do like the wisdom of verse 25, where he says, If someone sins against another person, God can mediate for the guilty party. But if someone sins against the Lord, who can intercede and I feel like that's, that's powerful wisdom, just generally speaking, but also feels like an ally, you, too. Here comes Jesus to take on the role of the inner, the one that's mediating between us and God, and you know, he just dunks it, and it is it I mean, it does sort of strike me as having like this, like, maybe this is kind of like the moral of the, or, like, the the point of this passage, or like, of this section is like, you're sinning against God, and what you're doing here and so that's, I can't, I can't fix that for you, you you've got to, like the audience maybe should be reading this and hearing that, you know, if you find yourself in the position, you're sinning against the Lord, if you find yourself in the position, that you're causing other people to stumble, and that you're taking the best from them and that you're offending, the sensibilities of the people that are trying to worship the Lord with all their heart like you say you're actually sinning against God.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, that's intense. I mean, it really puts things like that in perspective, right? Like I don't know I, I find myself in myself a lot of tension, about talking about sin because I do believe that God is a loving God. And I do believe that doesn't merely see me as a sinner, and he doesn't hate To me because of my sin, before or after Christ. And so I, sometimes I struggle with passages like this because it does seem, there is obviously a seriousness to sin. And I think that's fair. Right. And so I, but I wrestle with the implications of that seriousness. Mainly, in, in practice, especially in unsafe spaces are like, what does that theology being the overriding theology due to a space or a tradition or a church to only be focused on the seer series of this, that sin, and I don't know that I have all that worked out. But this sort of passage in the Old Testament is really hard to walk through knowing that they've sinned against the Lord, there was obviously, they did so flagrantly and often and with warning and without warning, to the point that they also mess with other people's ability to connect with God. And that, and it was the will of the Lord to kill them, according to the passage and like that, it's really I don't know, I don't know how to think about that kind of stuff. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, I, I.

Robert Callahan:

So one of the things that I mean, we could go down the rabbit hole pretty far, far, but when when you get into like some of the theological nuances of like, what we take from the New Testament, when we're reading Paul in particular, and what we extrapolate to believe, for example, like the idea that that there are, like, Calvinism, or double, double, double predestination, like things like that. People really wrestle with the scriptures that are the foundation for that. And like, one of them is like, this idea, that that like God in his like, what if God in His patience has, has allowed someone to be destroyed? And what I take from that is, like, if you watch shows, like, law and order, like where, and this is, you know, what I my mind does as a lawyer, criminal defense lawyer, there are some times where, like, the police have a sting operation. And, like the there's a confidential informant on the inside, and the police, you know, plant that person, and let them gather evidence, and the bad guy is doing the stuff. And the at any point in time, the police could come in and say, Okay, now gigs up, we got what we need to take this case to the district attorney, but like, the the district attorney, and the shows are always kind of in the background, say like, no, but like, we need more. And so it's like, you know, is it enough that this guy goes up to the doorstep of the house and rings the doorbell and does a special knock and the guy answers the door? Like, no anymore? And so like, Okay, is it enough that like, goes inside and there's dope everywhere all over the house? No, we need more. Okay, is that enough that we go inside the backroom where they're packaging the stuff up? And you know, in exchange money that note we need more? Okay, is it enough that like, and so they just like there's this restraint, that just lets lets it keep going at any point in time, there's opportunity for the quote, bad guy to step out of the situation and say, I this isn't what I want. But like they're just allowing this hole to be dug so deep that it's the case is airtight and irredeemable. And so, I kind of see like shades of that, by the way, not trying to do a drive by on Calvinism real quick, but whenever but, but like this is just this idea of like, they're like, God is a God of grace, but like, just that, like the, the, his restraint in allowing us to go for so long. And not and hopefully choose repentance, right? But, but to give to give us enough rope to either save ourselves or to hang ourselves with. And, you know, without Jesus, we would inevitably we would hang ourselves without him by that I don't just mean without his redemptive work, but I mean by without that, that understanding in our heart and our mind our ideology, we would just we inhibit I believe we just keep doing wrong, which would lead ultimately to our destruction. So I kind of see shades of that. That's

Kate Boyd:

yeah. So what one thing I'm learning in Hebrew is that there's a few different words for sin. I get translated as sin, often in the Bible. And too often, well, three that I've looked at, and one thing that I've been studying, the one is to sort of like iniquity and wrongdoing. Another sometimes gets termed as transgression. But it's the word for rebellion. And another one I want to say it's something like, well, there's an analogy that happens in one of the things where it compares like synth sickness, like an affliction or plague, almost, it's I don't necessarily want to throw that in as a word. Like, I can't remember off the top of my head out that's used exactly. But it sort of struck me that there are sort of these multiple dimensions to sort of like what we could call sin. And, and something that also struck me a couple of years ago, it's just this idea that I don't know that there really is personal sin, I think that sin, in actuality is communal in some way, whether that is in our relationship with God, or that it changes who we are in a way that affects the people around us, even if it's not a direct sin against other people. And so, they're, I think they sort of have this very flagrant way of flat like, going, like, it's very obvious in Phineas and Hockney's case how their sin is affecting other people, and even affecting those people's ability to relate. And so it is sort of interesting to think of the effects of sin and all of that, and, like, I've really sort of come to want to say like, but at least resonate with the idea of rebellion, right as a, as a sin framework, in some ways, or at least exploring that they do sort of feel like if the quote unquote, law or teaching that was handed down is sort of this way of creating a community of human flourishing for everyone. And you don't do that it's a rebellion against, you know, the, the design, right of how it should work, which affects other people on it affects you. But it is a choice to do that. Like it's not a I don't like I think maybe you could send accidentally but you've been moving forward, right? would know, and you wouldn't do that. And so I think there's stuff there, but there is sort of this like posture of rebellion, which there are lines, right, that are drawn from it in Kedah know, I'm, I'm really interested in, like the nature of sin right now. And so I'm like, molding a lot of things around and stuff like this is like, Oh, this is interesting. That is interesting. So it is yeah. But it would land us in a space where like, it is so bad, like gods like, not only are they gonna die, but your whole priestly line be like, go away, it's not going to be a thing. So one more worthy is going to get it, which I'm

Amanda Waldron:

yeah, just realizing now. Right. The section again, kind of has that near of solid David. Of like, we're going to, you're no longer going to be priest and someone else is going to be rise, like raised up in your place.

Robert Callahan:

Yeah, yeah, I definitely got those vibes to like in verse 32. In particular, you will watch with envy as I pour out prosperity on the people of Israel, but no members of your family wherever they live out their days. I would be remiss if I didn't give a shout out to Malcolm Foley, he's one of the pastors at our church. And one of the things that he constantly reminds us of as, at least in our congregation is he says that our sin is personal, it's communal, and it's cosmic. And I can see shades of of all of those here in this story. You know, like, when we were looking earlier, or Eli's even warning his son's, like, who's going to mediate for you if you're, if you're sinning against God, but then like, the sin doesn't stop with just them, right? Like it affects this whole family line. And Ely sin, which is essentially just letting his sons run rampant through the towel, just like, you know, run amok and cause all these problems. It's communal, and in fact it their sin in and of itself. It doesn't just affect Eli in their family, but you know, the people that are making the offerings, and then these young women that are being defiled by what their actions are, you know, and then of course, the like you were saying, Kate like just art, the way that things were set up the structure that God intended the cosmic aspect of it. Um, as it was intended, there's just these levels that I think I'd I don't think sin ever stops at just us. I think that even the sins that we think that are just personal is I think that's there's someone that's always someone else it's always affected affected by them

Kate Boyd:

rather than you in some way. There was also an it was okay, so I didn't know this, but reading some of the stuff I was reading apparently Hockney and Phineas are Egyptian names. And so the comparison to Pharaoh was sort of like, doubly their projection. So you get sort of those hard, hardened heart by, you know, yeah,

Amanda Waldron:

that's what I was thinking. They wouldn't listen to their

Robert Callahan:

Yeah, so maybe like the church is hearing this as saying, like, you know, they're recalling like, oh, the Egyptians still haven't learned.

Kate Boyd:

Like, don't be like the Egyptians. It's bad. Because bad news. Okay, anything else before we do take aways? No, they're ordered? Yeah, we've sort of glossed over that last bit, but I think there is there's a lot in there. But I think there was a lot of, I think we just sort of like be repeating some of the stuff that we were talking about. Okay. Takeaways, what? What did you learn? What is different for you? What are you going to do with the information you have? Based on what we saw here? Robert, I think that,

Robert Callahan:

sure. I think an important takeaway for me is just realizing

Kate Boyd:

the way that this

Robert Callahan:

I think that we talk about these stories, and I think that we tend to talk about particularly Old Testament stories, historically, matter of factly. And just quickly, and we learn them so young, that we don't go back, and we don't really inspect them, and interrogate them the way that we do New Testament stories. And so we just take for granted, for example, that there was an ark and that God destroyed all of the Earth, except for the the chosen few that were inside of the ark, and like, no big deal, and we painted on the nursery walls, and it's, you know, as the ark, and it's, you know, it's no, and it's the animals too. And there's a

Kate Boyd:

rainbow there, Robert. Story,

Robert Callahan:

right. So like, in the same. In the same way, when we're reviewing the story, I think that we're just we just kind of pass, right by Hannah, you know, and just at her role, how much value she has in the eyes of God, but in terms of the story, arc, she's just kind of

Kate Boyd:

she's a sort of a, an,

Robert Callahan:

I don't know, immigration, or with what's the I don't know what the word but a chamber for. For Samuel to, to be carried in and born from, but she, she has just this desperation in in the position that she has in society, where she just, there's no sense of worth, she's not adding anything to the value of the community. Because she's, she's barren, and she's despised by and then Nina. And so then, you know, she is she goes to the religious leader, and, and he makes fun of her and accost her and ridicules her and insults her. You know, the very person that that should be safe for her, is also, you know, causing problems for her. And so, then God does this incredible thing, by giving her this child and she is faithful to give that child back to the Lord and to take him to Eli, and to allow him to be raised. And despite all the junk that Eli has going on with his family, this child still ends up growing up and becoming a blessing. And so I don't know I just want to applaud Hannah in honor her faithfulness in the face of so much junk and that I think that we just sort of yatta yatta over as we're looking at these or is because we've been taught to just sort of like, oh, yeah, that happened. And we don't really think twice about it.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah. And I think as a theme that will work her is sort of this picture of, you know, the lonely person being elevated by God and Hannah, sort of the start of that. And I think that trend will continue throughout the book, but it is, I, I love that. God sees the people that nobody else sees, or values. And I think that's something that we get from the stories of women like Ghana, in the Bible, and other people that I think it is really evident in some of these like barren woman stories that we alluded to. So it's really interesting. Not only how sometimes it feels like, there's just like one story that just gets repeated over and over, but maybe we eat that story so many times. But that all the time is that God is baseball, even people who nobody else wants, or, and it doesn't just, you know, value that, quote unquote, high value people makes people high value. Just by nature of being around and devalues them. Cool. Man, that was your takeaway?

Amanda Waldron:

Yeah, kind of similar to what you just said around that theme of God noticing.

Kate Boyd:

And I? Yeah, I

Amanda Waldron:

think I've struggled with this concept. And I think especially in our Western Christianity, or American Christianity, there's this emphasis on, right, like the individual personal relationship with God, God has a plan for you. Specifically, he's gonna answer these prayers this way. Which has not always been my case. And I guess wasn't Hannah's case either. Cuz I'm guessing this wasn't the first time that she had prayed for this to happen. And so I think that's part of like the doubts and questions in this season of like, what does does God notice? Just us as communal us us people? Or does he notice this specifically, but I think when you said that, like, your translation said something like God took note of Hannah. And in my head, I translated that to like, God took note of Amanda. And like, that hits my spirit in a really interesting way that I want to be curious about of like, Okay, does that feel true? Is that true? So I think that's what I'm going to take away. I'm gonna ponder that question.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, it's good. I, yeah, I think I've just as a person, who is, you know, very involved in a lot of things. I think I'm really sort of like, convicted and curious about the sons of Ely and the ways in which they interfere with the holiness of other people. Right. This there's this sense of, and I mean, we could talk at length, about the ways in which we may have seen that in the churches we've been a part of, for the complex of churches that we've come out of, and what that looks like. But just sort of this, like, I always, and maybe this is a perfectionist thing that I'm probably because I'm worried about it, I probably don't need to worry about it kind of thing or need to worry about it less. But I do think there is sort of like this awareness that we need to have not just like, sort of like what y'all are saying that we think of like, there's the personal, like, the personal aspect of our relationship with God as most important but I think the ways in which we interact and lead other people to God or may interfere with other people's holiness, our path to God because of our unholiness, our rebellion, our hard heartedness, like I just want to be really aware and examine that in my own life as I move forward in a lot of different ways. So I think the seeing is part of that, but I also am like trying to become increasingly self aware about myself in some of those categories and you Even how my perfection like like my desire for perfection may be interfering with that too, right? It's sort of a double edged sword in the sense of like, if I try to be too put together in that way, I might be interfering as well, because it's sort of like a false picture of who I am and what it might be to be a follower of Jesus, and a lover of God. And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of dimensions. It's just like learning to think communally about the ways in which I interact with God, and what my interactions with God and other people, and how that all affects each other, I think, is an area. So maybe it's not a takeaway, but it's like an area to continue to ponder like you were saying, Amanda, I think maybe it's just like a question to keep sitting with and marinating on as we go. It's good. It's really good. Anything else you guys feel like needs to be said or want to?

Robert Callahan:

I just want to thank you for this opportunity. Because I like honestly, it's springing life to places that were otherwise it's kind of emotionally dead in me, you know, just sort of like that for Samuel, know about the story. categorize it with Noah and the flood in the ark. And you know, you just you move on. But it's really good to explore, and to draw out these these themes that are still relevant for us

Kate Boyd:

today. Yeah, yeah. And

Amanda Waldron:

I will say, I probably have read these chapters before, but I didn't remember any of these. Any of these first two chapters. I know the stories that I remember started chapter three.

Kate Boyd:

Right? Yeah. Tune in next

Amanda Waldron:

week.

Kate Boyd:

Well, I think it sort of goes back to like what we were saying before, like how Samuel sort of a facilitator so like, Hannah, like gets skipped over. So we just sort of like jumped to Samuel because through Samuel, we get to Sol and it gets a David, it's I was kind of glad that we Hannah wasn't coupled with like another one of those like big characters stories, because I feel like it she deserves attention. And so it was nice that she got some attention. And yeah, I mean, these things, these conversations are as much for me as they are for anybody because I love them. And I appreciate you guys being here and you being willing to sift through things and sit through some questions maybe that we don't have answers to and to just be comfortably uncomfortable. Yeah, the Bible. So thank you. And thank you so much for joining our discussion today. I hope that you got as much out of it as we always do from these conversations. If you enjoyed it, please leave a rating and review on your favorite podcast player to help more people find the show and learn along with us. And don't forget to find and follow us on social media. All our links are in the show notes and I can't wait until we see you next time. Bye