Chapters 15-16 | Gospel of Mark

On Today’s show, I’m joined by Amanda Waldron and Jill Richardson. 

Amanda is a Clinical Social Worker and works as a therapist in Grand Rapids, MI.  She’s just launched a new venture called Hey Amanda! where she will be mentoring thoughtful Christian in the midst of doubt and deconstruction, who want to toss toxic teachings, retain the authentic parts of their faith, and discover a deeper way to believe in Jesus. 

Instagram: heyamandawaldron

Twitter: heyamandawal

Jill pastors Real Hope Community Church in suburban Chicago. Her doctorate is in Church Leadership in a Changing Context, with a focus on the next generation and preaching. Her tagline is “Reframed: Picturing Faith what the Next Generation,” and her passion is to work with the next generation to create a healthy church for the 21st century. She’s written or contributed to 6 books, and her latest work is on how interactive preaching can better disciple people. She likes to travel, garden, work with refugees, and break into random musical numbers. She nerds out on Tolkien, tea, and animals of all kinds except spiders.

Twitter: @JillMarieRichar

Insta: @bluehairedpreacherlady

The three of us get together to talk about the sins of church and state (and their redemption), the mob mentality and manipulation, and where does Mark really end and why?

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Transcript

Kate Boyd: 0:09

You're listening to happy and holy the podcast where scripture comes to life through a small group discussion. This season as we walk through the rough and tumble Gospel of Mark, you get to be a fly on the wall and see what new things we learn with and from one another as we engage scripture and community. I'm your host, Kate Boyd. I'm a disciple maker, writer and speaker, who is making space in the church for Christians caught in the messy middle, between loving the church and leaving it. We love Jesus, love people, and work with God and each other for a better world. Welcome to the show. If you find yourself with so many best in the messy middle as a Christian, you're not alone. And I've got something to help. I've created the untidy faith newsletter just for you. And together, we'll navigate the many tensions of the Christian life and in the process, find ourselves wandering closer to the way of Jesus. When you sign up, you'll get a printable version of the messy middle Christian Manifesto. It's your inbox today, as well as first access to more untidy faith resources as they come out like classes and other fun tools. You can sign up today at Kate boyd.co slash newsletter. On today's show, I'm joined by Amanda Waldron and Jill Richardson. And the three of us get together to talk about the sense of church and state and their redemption, the mob mentality and manipulation that occurs in these two chapters. And where does Mark really end and why. So if you're looking for some fun discussion on marketing on 16, then I will keep you from it any longer. Let's go. Welcome, everybody. Today we are talking through the final chapters of Mark, Mark 15 and 16. Um, and I have some friends with me. So I'm going to have them introduce themselves. Jill, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself.

Jill Richardson: 2:05

Okay, I'm Gil to most people, to to impudent men on Twitter. I'm Dr. Richardson. I love it. I pastor real hope Community Church in Chicago suburbs. My second job is writing and speaking and none of those job pays well. But my my passion is to work with the next generation to create a healthy church. And I and I say with intentionally because not against not teaching too. Because I really believe we need to listen and learn from our next generations to kind of honestly burn down a lot of what we've done with our discipleship and recenter ourselves. So that's what I'm really passionate about in restructuring the church. We invigorating it. So one of the things I try to do on Sunday mornings, it's why I preach interactively. It's why I wrote the book, my agent is currently marketing. So yeah.

Kate Boyd: 3:04

Yeah, that's awesome. In that way, we have a lot in common. Amanda, how about you?

Amanda Waldron: 3:12

Yeah, I'm Amanda Waldron. I'm a clinical social worker in Grand Rapids, Michigan. So I have a private therapy practice here. That's my day job and then just launched a new venture called, hey, Amanda, that's working with Christians that are going through doubt and questioning deconstruction and want to stay within the Christian faith, but may need some of those more like, clinical ways, mind shift ways of how to do that. So I get to bring in my clinical social work and my love of theology to help many people navigate through that process so that they can stay in the Christian faith, but maybe just expand what that looks like. I love that. That's really interesting.

Kate Boyd: 3:58

Yeah. Well, with all of that, we've got some really good juicy stuff. This is, you know, the, well, I guess it's all juicy. That's the thing about mark is like, he doesn't, he doesn't mess up. He doesn't mess around with trifling bits. He's like, this is what happened. And we're just gonna keep plowing through. Um, but here's, you know, in chapters 13 and 16, it's the end of the book. So we're getting kind of, you know, to the, to the big parts of the story, so I'm excited to talk through them today. Jill, why don't you help everybody out by recapping chapter 15 so that everyone kind of knows what we'll be talking about. Over the next little bit.

Jill Richardson: 4:39

Okay. Yeah, Mark 15. is I mean, it's part of the arrest, trial, crucifixion. Part of the story. So, so for most of us, I think it's really well known. But that means to me that that means we need to pay better attention to it for that reason, because it's, it's just so easy. Oh, I know the story. I know. You know, and We think we know it. But no, that's that's a signal to me to say, Okay, what, what's deeper here? What can I listen to and look at that I didn't see before. And this really familiar story. So that's kind of where I went with it. Jesus has been arrested, says he's brought before the leading priests and they proceed to accuse him of all kinds of crimes, they create false witness against him. So breaking commandments and gray pass around which man it is, but I know it's in there. It's in the top. Yeah, it's like eight or nine. They're really working hard to figure out some reason they can get rid of him. But they're struggling because there isn't a reason. And they're kind of making it up as they go along. So finally, they decided to bring in a pilot, they want to scapegoat they want to brush it off and make somebody else do their dirty work. So pilot, interrogate them. And we see pilot being amazed that Jesus doesn't answer any of these accusations, which really interesting. Anyway, I look at pilot and I'm like, this is this is the guy with attitude. This is, this is the board powerful man. And I just see him in the story being like, again, with these people really? Like, who is this weird guy who is not trying to defend himself? He's really not helping me. Why won't he make my job easier? Come on, buddy. Yeah, play your part, man. Just say something. So I don't have to do that. He's feeling super uncomfortable, obviously, with this being tossed at him. And like, I do not need this today, guys. And, and you see a lot of like, in pilot, it's just me, me, me. Me. Why is this happening to me? Instead of why is this happening to the citizen man, you know, so yeah, that's where he seems to be at. And then you've got the crowd that's, that's being incited to demand that Jesus died. And they insist pilot release Brabus is revolutionary murder rather than Jesus, which seems kind of surprising. Because no one in this crowd knows an exact crime. They don't know what he's done. They can't pin anything on him. But they're this crowd that's been fed a bunch of lies and being made angry and whipped into this wild, mindless frenzy did to do what the leaders want. And so pilots is fine, whatever, I have other things to do today. Since Jesus and soldiers, they beat him, they whip them, they mock him mercilessly, and, and he's bloody and beaten. It says with his lead tip whips. So like, Man, that's, that's a lot. Not good. Yeah. It's

Kate Boyd: 7:44

not the way you want to spend your, your day for sure.

Jill Richardson: 7:47

No, no, that's that's not Passover, you know? Right. And, and the thing that really strikes me in this story, like, one thing that really was stood out to me as kind of Wow, wow. They offer Jesus myrrh and wine mix together, which is a drug. Basically, they're saying, you know, this is this is how you can dump numb the pain of the crucifixion. This is this is gonna make it easier for you. And he doesn't take it. And I'm just so amazed and so humbled by that it's like Jesus, and they're saying, I want to know, yeah, all the pain, all the abuse, all this sin and, and I want to feel it. And so like to me, I mean, that just stops me in my tracks. I look at that. And I say, Oh, my gosh, we'd have a savior who gets it. Yeah. who refuses to be numbed by this enormous hurt that he's going to experience and so like, what pain does he not know? That I have? Pain range? I know my gosh.

Kate Boyd: 8:53

Yeah. So the soldiers lock, and then we've got you know, the, the crucifixion itself.

Jill Richardson: 9:01

Right. And, and that's, that's 15 years ago.

Kate Boyd: 9:05

Yeah. And then death and burial. So maybe let's rewind. So we can talk through some of these details, because there are a lot of these little things like you were alluding to, as we get through, so Jesus before Pilate, um, I mean, there's actually like two trials in a very short span, right. So it says Jesus for Pilate in my Bible, but it actually starts with Jesus before the Jewish Council. What sort of stood out to you guys in, you know, the Jesus Jewish Council and pilot interactions here? I was letting her have a chance to go ahead, Joe. I have some other thoughts but

Jill Richardson: 9:53

I mean, one of the things that stands out in the council and that kind of goes into both my rabbit trail and my weed thoughts I guess is that? I mean, this council meets early in the morning it says, so like, why does he don't? Why do they do that? Because they don't want to be questioned. They don't they want to be secretive. Yeah. My talks about discussing the next steps and it just sounds so manipulative, like, I don't want to get into truth, I just want to damage control. Yeah.

Kate Boyd: 10:25

Well, and I think if we look back at the, at, you know, the book leading up to this, there has been plotting and planning and attempting to trap like, the whole time. Like, he makes them angry, like way back in like chapters two and three, like, they've been planning this for a long time. So this is kind of like the culmination of it. Because they had someone you know, finally deliver him over. And now they've got this. And my Bible actually had a note that said, you know, they could have been meeting early in the morning. And, you know, because they arrested him overnight, but also because they wanted to sort of like rush it and make sure that they were like, ready for the Roman trial first thing in the morning. So it was like, as soon as they open, they can take care of that, which I thought was interesting, something I hadn't thought of before. I mean, I knew that they would rush it because like, they don't really have evidence, they couldn't even have people agree on things. But um, yeah, so that was something that stood out to me, Amanda, how about you?

Amanda Waldron: 11:22

Yeah, I would think that they're trying to get things done really quickly, but also like this culture within a culture, right. So like, the, like, I'm guessing that they had to have their ducks in a row to be like, hey, to go to that Roman trial and be like, this is what's going on? Because they were under that occupation. And so they're probably wore these cultural rules that they had to adhere to in that. My other thought with this, as I was rereading through, I can't remember which of the Creed's maybe it's both the other day that like, Pontius Pilate shows up in one of those Creed's, like, tried under Pontius Pilate, which is really? I don't know, I don't know if I noticed that before that he like places like just significant role in here that he finds himself in one of the Creed's.

Kate Boyd: 12:11

Yeah, it's interesting, too, because I think it's because they wanted him to die. And, and that, and Rome sort of handled that thing, right. And so they hand him over. And my Bible also had this note, you know, about how this is used a lot of time, like, we were talking about the crowd and how fickle they are. Because a few chapters back, they're like loving Jesus, and now they are not loving Jesus. Um, and then, you know, how often that sort of turns into like, it's used in an anti semitic way, you know that the Jews are the ones who killed Jesus. But even though mark is probably the one that comes closest to maybe representing that in his gospel, ultimately, Jesus's death is not at the hands of Rome at the hands of Pilate, because he's the one that orders it. So it's not like, maybe they were in, you know, spurred on. But it's very much like, that's not something we should be taking away from this story is that Jews are bad people, because that's not, that's not what we're here for.

Jill Richardson: 13:17

I mean, I think we have to be super careful with that. Because for one thing, like not every faricy not every religious leader was doing this. They're obviously you see Joseph Mayer, mithya. Right. They're asking for his body. So they're not all doing this. Yeah, it's not. It's not that they're Jewish. It's that they're the powerful leaders. Right? How is that different from us? I mean, really, it's not? Yeah.

Kate Boyd: 13:42

One thing I dug into this is maybe one of my rabbit trails was I, I'm always fascinated by rabbits like I want, so I wanted to know more about him. Unfortunately, no one knows anything about him, other than what's in the Gospels. And actually, what was interesting is that it says that the gospels are the only place where this tradition is mentioned, like the tradition of releasing someone at Passover. It doesn't seem to make it and like history, books, history accounts, and nor do people know who like they don't also don't mention paratus. He's just somebody that shows up in the Gospels. But it was talking about, you know, there were a lot of little isolated uprisings because obviously, they don't like being under Roman control. And so there was an insurrection. And he was probably one of those people who participated. So yeah, I mean, I know that I feel like when I was a kid, we talked a lot about or people talked about the rabbits and like, how horrible he was. And like he was some sort of really bad thief or murderer or something. And it's really interesting to me to read how little we actually know about him. Um, because, like my impression of Brabus is as a kid was this like, really horrible and I don't know if people told me that if that's what I took away from what people, you know, implied. But yeah, it was very sad. That was sort of eye opening for me, because I feel like that was a different take on him than I had heard before.

Jill Richardson: 15:14

Yeah, you can see I'm more of as a political prisoner, actually, then, you know, it's not so interesting.

Kate Boyd: 15:25

Another thing that popped out at me was, from a, from a whole book perspective, on one hand, pilot sort of feels like Herod does earlier in the john the baptist death. Because he just sort of like, you know, saves face capitulates to what the people around him want. He really doesn't have a conviction. He even knows he's not guilty. But he does it anyway, which I thought was an interesting parallel. And that his crime against Pilate, so like the, the Jewish Council, you know, is accusing him of blasphemy. But in front of Pilate, it's the accusation is that he's King of the Jews. So there's like, even thinking of the way that they spun it so that it would sort of seem important to Rome. Like it sort of goes back to that false witness thing that we were talking about before.

Amanda Waldron: 16:25

Right. Yeah. Yeah. Even if that flavoring of an insurrection right like this, this guy is also trying to take some power from Rome.

Jill Richardson: 16:38

Yeah. And then find out later that that's exactly what he's doing. But not in the way. Nicky, Jesus. I know.

Kate Boyd: 16:49

So yeah, I mean, in the pre stir, stir everybody up. And pilot hands releases Brabus, and hands over Jesus to be crucified. And so then the soldiers we've got the soldiers and what took place there. Yeah, so the soldiers in the and the crucifixion. What are some of the details that maybe kind of jumped out at you guys from reading that part?

Amanda Waldron: 17:20

I think it's always interesting to like how Mark decided to put in what details he did with like the sons of Simon of sirene. But yeah, Father, Alexander and Rufus. Like, I don't want to know more about that. I want to know what happens to us after he gets really it's like, all these little details in there that we Yeah, we just don't get to know about right. It's really interesting. I

Jill Richardson: 17:46

did I actually, when I was reading something, oh, years and years ago, look that up because yes, I'm gonna say rain suns turned back up in the church in Rome. And wow. Oh, the ties that come together are just fascinating. And Mark would have known that. So

Kate Boyd: 18:05

I love that I didn't realize that they showed up. I didn't look into that. But I too thought that was really interesting that he named the children because that seemed very that didn't seem like I don't know, an important detail. But if they are part of the chat at the time, and it makes sense. Yeah. His readers without right, like they're like, Oh, right. Exactly. He understands in here. That's my, like, when you It's like when you see your friend at the baseball game, right? on TV, you're like, Oh, I know that person.

Jill Richardson: 18:37

I just put another piece of his past together this Yeah. Yeah. That's so fun. Um, yeah. So

Kate Boyd: 18:46

they're also kind of the sort of kingly details that are here because he's accused of being king of the Jews. So the purple cloak the crown of thorns, their sleeves saluting him and mocking him. Just really, yeah, that's really,

Jill Richardson: 19:00

it's hard to read. You know, it is the mocking and I was struck by the lead tip, which was like, I don't remember that detail. I don't remember how really horrific that was. I remember the width. I don't remember how they made it to be worse by putting lead tips on it and that's just

Unknown: 19:21

I don't know.

Kate Boyd: 19:23

Like it's one thing to be whipped. But it's another thing to like, have it rip into you that way, you know. And then yeah, Golgotha they offered the wine mix with Mara but he did not take it. I also thought it was interesting because yeah, my my Bible made a note of that murder was a pain reliever and so I thought that was like, Oh, I never heard that. You sort of think you obviously think of murder when you think of the birth and the wise men but um so it's interesting that that sort of a thing to Gosh, and that they're just like dividing up his clothes. Like it's they're just sort of taking all the dignity that they can out of it. Right? We're

Jill Richardson: 20:14

we're gonna strip you of absolutely everything before we kill you. Yeah. There's no no shred of mercy there from anybody and yet, that's all you get from Jesus. And it just blows my mind. I can't I can't get over that.

Kate Boyd: 20:36

Yeah. I think to where's the part? Maybe that's Oh, that's coming up. Okay. Um, yeah, anything else from that Amanda that sort of jumped out at you from the actual like prior to the depth section but whenever they're sort of in it with him putting him up?

Amanda Waldron: 21:00

Yeah, I mean I think it's all kind of straightforward they they go and put that sign to the king of the Jews doesn't say who writes the note? No not necessarily but I'm assuming the Romans. Yeah, that's right.

Kate Boyd: 21:17

Yeah, I mean it's their it's their thing. crucifixion super great invention.

Amanda Waldron: 21:29

And then yeah, like, so that's happening in the room inside but then it's also happening with the chief priests and teachers as well that they are having this own the side conversation of joking as well. Right like, Yeah, no, that's a good idea totally, totally gone. Like this is still a man who's experiencing pain.

Unknown: 21:54

Yeah.

Kate Boyd: 21:56

Yeah, it is interesting that it's not just the Romans, I think we sort of forget that. But it's also there over here saying like, who Messiah save other people can't save himself, you know, like, they're, they're a little too, they're very pleased to see someone die this way, which feels like, I don't know, it feels very callous. It's really hard to sort of sit with that. That's they're getting what they wanted, you know,

Jill Richardson: 22:23

especially when you realize how many Jewish people have been crucified. It's, it's Rome's way of dealing with them. And it's humiliating, and they know it. Yeah, they live this experience in their people, and yet, they're gonna do it to their own

Amanda Waldron: 22:43

lives, this sound in a sermon one time that talks about that to be not to be the devil's advocate. But some of the dynamics going on on their side, too, is I think, like, the chief priests, were really trying to keep their ability to keep practicing their Jewish ways within this culture inside Jesus is a stumbling block of like, he's gonna get us in trouble with Rome. He's gonna get us in trouble with Rome and so on there and kind of just seeing this as like, they're trying to preserve this Jewish faith. Not in a not in a healthy way. But just that, yeah, that piece of they didn't have the full story of what was going on.

Kate Boyd: 23:28

Yeah. Yeah. And I actually think that's kind of a theme and Mark, there are a lot of times when Jesus rubs up against both the Empire and the religious authorities. Like there's a lot of that going on. And and we keep seeing these parallels, right. It's not just the Romans doing it. It's the religious leaders and even the people who conspired with it with them to kill Jesus, we're Herodians is what is what Mark says, so like, there is this tension as even when he's like flipping over tables in the temple, like, some of that money goes to Rome, and it stops at like, there's a lot of stuff happening and all these that affect both sides of it. And so I'm like, it's Yeah, church and state or buddy are our book conspiring to kill him? You know, because they think that he's trying to topple what they're about any any kind of is, but not in the way that they were. Right? Wrong. Yeah, they're not wrong, but they're also not totally right.

Unknown: 24:33

He absolutely is, but not Nope.

Kate Boyd: 24:36

Yeah. And in the end, they end up playing into the way that he does that by trying to stop it, which is such an interesting dynamic of how God uses you know, like the lives of people you know, the way that he everything gets orchestrated, he's like that's okay. It sort of reminds me of Joseph right. You thought this was furred? Yeah, bad for me, but it's actually for good. Yeah, that's Yeah, that's good. That's a good reminder. All right. So death and burial. Um It's interesting. I, it's interesting to me that he marks out like the time like it was nine o'clock it was noon, darkness came over and three in the afternoon. And so there's like very specific times that they list out. Yeah, what sort of are the things that you guys were feeling or thinking about or asking as y'all were working through these questions this section?

Jill Richardson: 25:42

The death in the burial part Hmm. Yeah, maybe start with death? I mean, one of the things that stood out to me, and it's kind of it's really an opposition to my rabbit trail, thought that was down later today.

Kate Boyd: 25:58

We are a people of tension.

Jill Richardson: 26:00

Yeah, I mean, I love the tension This is Yeah, good is that you've got the rabbit trail that I can talk about later. And then on the other side, you have these other people, you've got the women, and you've got Joseph, and they stay with them. And they openly grieve in it. And it says the Joseph takes risk to ask the body and that's a real risk. I mean, they are risking as opposed to these people who, you know, go on to the mob mentality mentality, which is, you know, my rabbit trail. They're not protecting the status quo. They're they're risking open ally ship with this criminal and, and it's just beautiful to me, they understand that the right thing comes with risk. Yeah. You know, the road to hell is paved with this me first theology and these power plays that have been going on to the whole private sector. To maintain their position, then, I just want to be like these women, like, Joseph. Yeah, you're the one maybe.

Kate Boyd: 26:58

Was there more you wanted to say about mob mentality? like things that you noticed? Watch earlier? Have?

Jill Richardson: 27:04

You asked many gram five to go down a rabbit trail? Do you know what that?

Kate Boyd: 27:09

Look, I'm in enneagram, five, two, you do not have to tell me. My life is lived in day long dives into rabbit trail.

Jill Richardson: 27:18

I was like, Okay, I need to stop because I need to work on a sermon today. It's

Kate Boyd: 27:23

like, I can't just jump out of what I'm doing. I get it. This is this is my life. Yeah. So I mean, I know that we've sort of past a lot of the mob stuff. But if there is more that you sort of want to touch on there, especially if we're talking about like the tension and the difference between how they behaved and how some of these other people behaved.

Jill Richardson: 27:47

Yeah, I mean, you've got like you mentioned before, you want to talk about the council first, and then the child before pilot, and I'm seeing in both of those situations, this this crowd psychology and manipulation In this scenario, and that really fascinated me. Because, I mean, how can we, how can we not notice some parallels?

Kate Boyd: 28:09

Yeah, current, you know, situations, whether the relevant what are some of the ways that you see the crowd mentality kind of manifesting are, what are the characteristics of that, that you that really sort of made that go? Ooh, this is like a mob mentality that's showing?

Jill Richardson: 28:26

Yeah. So So some of the research, I delved into them versus they were talking about, you know, you've got individuals, and this crowd is made up of all individuals, and the council is made up of all individuals and, and we're all different, right? Like, all three of us are different. Yeah, interest, backgrounds, education, whatever. But together, when a crowd gets together, they lose that they lose what makes them distinct, and they start to act like this monolithic mob. And I know that's why that's why people we interact with as individuals can do horrible things. And we're like, how did that happen? I thought that was a nice guy. Yeah. And you know, we see things like this mob, we see things like happened on January 6, to cut that out. You don't want to be political but and we think, Wow, how does something like that come about that people in a mob will do this? Well, the same way that it happened in this council and this crowd because we stopped acting as individuals, we start at an instinct, we start acting like I have the anonymity of this crowd, so I lose my fear, I kind of lose my sense of moral responsibility. And, and I feel invincible because I'm with this group I belong to. Yeah.

Kate Boyd: 29:46

And I think belonging is such a big part of it.

Jill Richardson: 29:49

Yeah, yeah. You lose your sense of Oh, this is who I am individually. I would never do that. So like you've got this religious council. And, you know, a few chapters ahead of this, you have a man coming to Jesus. Who else who asked him who says, Hey, I know I can hear good truth being spoken from you? What do I need to know? And Jesus says you're not far from the kingdom of God. So he has this great interaction. Jesus was that man and his counsel now, is he sitting in his room? No. Yeah, no.

Kate Boyd: 30:28

Or even? Yeah, or even Joseph, right? Just a very mithya that we say who like offers? Who wants the body so he can bury it? Like it says, he's on the council? Like,

Jill Richardson: 30:38

was he in this meeting? Or was this like a smaller group? Like, what is? What's happening? No, because you get these individuals together in this group. And oh, she said, she said, This must be true, because so many people are saying it. So it must have credibility. And suddenly, you've got this group that's doing something each person that would never do. Yeah, yeah. I found that really fascinating. And then of course, it happens in the larger graph. Yeah.

Kate Boyd: 31:06

Totally. And Amanda, how about you in the death? and burial? What are some of the things that kind of jumped out? at you?

Amanda Waldron: 31:16

Yeah, well, just to kind of comment on what you were just saying, Jill to right. Like in in, in my therapy, I talk with clients about like, rigid versus flexible thinking. And sometimes fear is what generally drives us to that rigid thinking. So we get that kind of all or nothing like, this is what we're doing, or that mental filter where someone paints the picture. And we're like, oh, we're only seeing it through that lens. But that's kind of an interesting concept of like, maybe in a larger group, I think that fear is still there. But there's more leeway to act on that. So then when we have more that rigid thinking, we are acting out of more fear based behaviors or our like, shadow side of ourselves, too.

Kate Boyd: 32:00

Absolutely. Fear drives, fear drives everything. Yeah. Yeah. So when I some of the things that sort of stood out to me in the death scene, you know, obviously, he cries out, right, and the crowd is like, oh, let's, he maybe he's crying out for Elijah, which I thought was like, an interesting thing to do. Like, why would they jump to that, um, and apparently, Elijah was thought to help those in distress. So maybe that they thought that he was going to come, which was interesting. And then, again, sort of, to, because of this, like brushing up against, you know, church and state thing that I've sort of seen throughout the whole book. You've got sort of like two people. You've got, first, the Roman the centurion, who says, surely this was the Son of God, right? And then you've got Joseph, the pharaoh mithya, who's on the council who's like, I want I want to take him because he was waiting for the kingdom of God. And so there's like, this is again, we we don't just see, like people who are not faithful. We also see examples of how people came to love and appreciate Jesus, even though they were part of the crowds that were, you know, in, in, in charge of like, taking him down. And the women, what's interesting to me to you is they're the disciples aren't here. They're gone. After the arrest, they're just like, by or right. Yeah. And, and then it's like, but the women were there, they hung out. But you know, the 12, the inner circle, none of them are here. And all the other women who had come up with him to Jerusalem, like these people who had followed him, and then faithful and supported and so it's like, I guess no wonder he shows up to them first.

Jill Richardson: 34:06

Which we'll get to here at the tomb first, so yeah, it's still there. There's Yeah, faithful while everyone else is in a room going, Hey, we don't know what's going on. We were paralyzed. Yeah.

Amanda Waldron: 34:21

I think it also, was it a commentary or maybe a little video that I watched that talked about, like, Marcus setting up this, kind of like this case of like showing who Jesus is throughout this whole book. And then here at his death and his death and crucifixion. It's the it's the cinterion that kind of makes that proclamation like surely this man was the son of God. Yeah. Yeah. Not necessarily. Like you sound like Jim or anybody else. But yeah, yeah, that opens the kingdom wide up, doesn't it? Yeah. That he saw the evidence. Yeah. I was like, I think this is what's going on.

Jill Richardson: 35:02

It's like suddenly, oh, yeah, you're included to Don and this is gonna explode. And it's a risk for him to like even say that. Yeah.

Kate Boyd: 35:11

Yeah, I think to that the detail that that said after like, right after the curtain is torn, is really interesting. Because it says the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. And a lot of people think that is, you know, for the Holy of Holies. In the in the temple, which is the most sacred part, that's where the Ark of the Covenant is where, you know, God is said to dwell, or God dwells, that's when the high priest like come in, during their rituals, that's where they meet him. So like, the curtain is torn, and then a centurion, who normally wouldn't be allowed anywhere near that space of the temple is the one that says he's the son of God. First in the story, after his death, which is fascinating to me, too. Also, I was surprised, maybe not surprised, but it seemed that they said that pilot seemed surprised that he was dead so soon, because apparently, normally they're up there for a few days before the actual dying part happens. So yeah, it's really hard to think about, but, um, when he confirmed then he gave the body to Joseph to be buried. And even that Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joseph didn't necessarily like they weren't like, necessarily good friends with Joseph, but they saw where he was buried, and that's when they jumped in. Alright, Chapter 16. Amanda. Yeah, why don't you recap for us? Okay, so, Chapter 16, a lot shorter than chapter 15. Yeah.

Jill Richardson: 36:58

It's a little bit yeah, yeah, I was, like, 15 is really long. I know, all chapters are really wrong.

Kate Boyd: 37:05

For 16. It's like, tiny.

Amanda Waldron: 37:08

And there's, there's some controversy around the actual length of this chapter now. So 16 starts off with the resurrection. And it's gonna be kind of your standard resurrection story that you might find in Matthew and Luke, as well. So talks about Mary Magdalene, Mary, the mother of James, and Salome. And I have the question whether Mary the mother of James is that like, that Jesus's brother, but it's, it's a different James, sort of comment here. Yeah, yeah. Um, brought spices to anoint the body, and they get there, and they see that the stone is rolled away, and that there is a very bright man sitting inside. And he says, Don't be alarmed. He's the one that tells them about Jesus's resurrection. Martina never says that this is an angel. But there's other places, other gospels that will say that this is an angel. And so the women leave, they fled the tomb. And it's this says it doesn't, they didn't tell anyone because they were afraid. And so that's kind of chapter that's verses one through eight. And if you go to your Bible, you may see something interesting, which is a break in the text and a little parentheses, that talks about the earliest manuscripts, and some other ancient witnesses do not have Mark nine through 20. So some, so chapter 16 is 20 verses long, the first eight are confirmed in the oldest manuscripts. But there's some question around nine through 20. And so I'll recap nine through 20. Just so people know what it says. Yeah. So this goes through that Jesus did appear to Mary Magdalene, she tried to go and tell the disciples, they did not believe her. We get a story that seems pretty similar to Jesus appeared to the two men on the road to Aramis. They go back, tried to tell the disciples they don't believe them. And then we get Jesus appearing to the 11, giving kind of a version of the Great Commission. And then Jesus being taken up. Mark is the only one that says he sits on the right hand of God. And then talks about kind of the gospel being preached everywhere. After that, yeah.

Kate Boyd: 39:44

Yeah, this section of scripture is interesting, because like you said, there's a lot of like disputes as to as to where it ends because some are like it ends after eight and then my Bible has like the shorter ending, which is like a little recap, and then it's like the longer ending, and it goes through all this other stuff, and it's all Like bracketed and they're like we don't, you know? So, yeah. Was there anything I know that you sort of like, looked into that? Amanda? Was there anything that sort of jumped out at you from that? You know, digging into that, or just sort of that it was? Yeah, it was super fascinating. Because I didn't even think I understood what the process was, when they were, they were bringing everything together to create, like, what we know is the Bible

Amanda Waldron: 40:29

now, but generally, what they would do is put a call out for all the manuscripts, all the writings of these letters, to kind of bring them all together and examine them. So somewhere along the line, well, I guess there's a there's a couple a couple of theories of what happened. So some think that the, that mark intentionally ended at eight, kind of with this cliffhanger of he set up all this evidence of who Jesus is. And now you the reader gets to be the one that makes the conclusion. But it seems a little bit different than the other gospels, because it doesn't actually like Jesus doesn't appear at the end if it ended.

Kate Boyd: 41:15

Yes. He's like, not even there.

Amanda Waldron: 41:17

Yeah. Who do you think Jesus? We've been told he's resurrected, but we don't necessarily thoroughly see him at the end of Mark, without the other verses. So that's the one that mark just ended with a cliffhanger. There's a theory that maybe there was a page loss, like, he's writing it writing it writing, it gives it to the scribe, and the last page gets lost somewhere. So we don't have the final, the final verses or that? Yeah, something happened, there was an abrupt ending, he wasn't able to finish the letter. Or there's the idea that at some point, in the transcription of Mark's letter, Mark's book, that additional verses were added that kind of summarize for the reader what's going on, and nothing in nine through 20. Like, for everything a nine through 20, is spoken of is supported by other gospel passages.

Kate Boyd: 42:25

You Yeah, I mean, it's sort of like a mixture of elements from the other three Gospels and acts, right. So we've also got, like, the essential and stuff like that, but it's not totally in here, which is interesting. My, so I, one of my professors, in the fall, he's really big into mark, so we studied a lot of it, which is part of, which is part of why I chose mark, because I had to do a lot of research on it. Um, and so his theory is, you know, the idea of Mark is that, you know, he's preparing people to believe and trust and act accordingly, in the midst of a lot of persecution, which is what was happening in when Mark was written. So, um, you know, showing what it's like. And that's why he's like, really making sure that they know who he is and what to believe. And also, Mark was the first gospel, right, so it's the one that if other details were pulled from it, Mark was part of their source material, potentially for that. But anyway, he thinks it ends at chapter eight, typically, or originally, perhaps, because we're supposed to think of the women as a cot, like we're not supposed to do what they did, right? You're supposed to that, that this is a bad example, what to do, you know, to not be to not just be silent and afraid. But to do what Jesus told you to do, right? Or what God tells you to do, and which I think is interesting. Um, but yeah, I'm curious. And it certainly stood out to me that Jesus, if we cut it off at eight, right, that Jesus isn't actually here. We don't see him again,

Unknown: 44:09

make that final appearance.

Kate Boyd: 44:10

Yeah. He's not there. But you know, young man, right, whatever is what it says. But it's probably an angel is the one that gives the news and but it says, you know, and you will see him just as he told you, so it gives them hope and what they're supposed to do, and they, they went out and fled from the tomb. And my sister terror and amazement had seized them. So like, they're, you know, I'm terrified with what just happened there. Yeah, totally.

Jill Richardson: 44:40

Yeah, who's not gonna be? And I don't mean I don't think they have to be mutually exclusive. Like, why don't you run away and be terrified and say nothing and then I can want to the other gospels, it says they ran to tell the disciples while they were afraid, right. Oh, man, I love that verse so much because like, well, you are You want to do what he told you to do? Yeah. And so why couldn't that have happened afterward? You know, it's it doesn't have to be that they just failed.

Amanda Waldron: 45:09

Yeah. And so yeah, verse nine kind of speaks more to that, that. Verse nine and 10 were appeared to Mary Magdalene. And she went, yeah, like, went and tried to tell the disciples. Yeah.

Kate Boyd: 45:23

Yeah, my Bible says it was probably these were probably added later, because they wanted it to be a little more positive.

Unknown: 45:31

Like that

Kate Boyd: 45:34

example, to me the last thing, they're like, no, but good things happened to you guys.

Jill Richardson: 45:43

What I love and find really interesting there is like, there's some there's some people who say that they think the young, the guy who ran away naked was Mark. Yeah. And so did he leave it this way? Because that's how he left the scene. And make it. And that's where he wants you to sit for a bit because he had to. Yeah, I just find that really interesting. So maybe, I don't know.

Kate Boyd: 46:11

So yeah, then we've got, so if we're going, like you said beyond eight, and even so we talk a little bit about Hugh Pearson, Mary Magdalene, he appears to the other two other disciples, he ascends. And anything in that that sort of jumped out at you or you thought was interesting to bring up from your reading?

Amanda Waldron: 46:33

Um, not that well, from the reading. But the research also said that many of there are a lot of early Christian Christians in their own writing that that were aware of these verses, like some that. Yeah, even in 100 ad 151 ad that people were quoting these verses, so they were well known, even if they weren't in the original manuscripts.

Kate Boyd: 47:02

So these are something like it. Yeah. We're at least existed, which, yes. Which at least argues to why they're included, even though maybe some of the early manuscripts aren't there. Like people are familiar with them. Yeah. So is anybody going to go picking attempting to pick up snakes?

Unknown: 47:25

Donna, but they've not been done this, so I'm gonna keep it that way.

Kate Boyd: 47:28

Yeah, I'm not gonna maybe not chance it. spiritual gift of mine.

Jill Richardson: 47:38

And of course, they do not believe women, which, you know, big surprise.

Kate Boyd: 47:42

Yeah. Shocking. They're like, I'm sorry. I don't I don't believe you. And then some other people. But they didn't. I mean, well, I guess we don't know who the other disciples were. Up here to another form two, two of them. Yeah, it

Amanda Waldron: 48:03

does. But it because it doesn't get their names and the other gospel either, right. No,

Kate Boyd: 48:09

there's speculation as to who they are. But what we get back ulation? Well, I'm trying to remember because I had to do the story. Is it in Luke? where it shows? I don't know. Yeah. Luke 24. Yeah. So I had to look at it for another class. And I remember saying, like to men, and they're like, No, actually, it was it doesn't say to men, it says to disciples, I was like, Oh, that's a good point. My bad. Um, look it up. And they had, oh, gosh, they had set they had given some names, but I couldn't, I wouldn't be able to that was ages ago. Oh, that's interesting of people that they thought Oh, one of them was named cleopas. Right. And so they think maybe it was like his wife or something that was with them. So Luke does name one of them. Potentially, if this is the same as they were walking into the country, so if it's the same people that we're talking about, which is potential, then cleopas wherever he is, is one of them. Let's see if it says anything. And his friend. Yeah. And unnamed other women. Yeah. Which I think is interesting, too, because then it means that it probably wasn't one of the 12 right, or the two of the 12. It's two of the other disciples. I think sometimes we forget that he had a lot of people following him and which is why it sort of feels weird that he like picks up with all these women and these other people that are crucifixion and stuff when we don't really see them at all throughout the the gospel very much. But the disciples leave but they're the ones that are still there.

Amanda Waldron: 49:46

They're no Alexander or Rufus. They must not play a part later.

Kate Boyd: 49:51

Those women mark is a great at naming the women that syrophoenician lady and You know, cleaning lady. Yeah, we don't have things.

Jill Richardson: 50:05

That's funny you bring that up ducks is something I'm thinking about a lot lately is that we tend to think, club disciples, but that's nonsense. There were so many and so many of them were women. And we exclude that like, Oh, no, he was only followed by men's no event at all. They're what's interesting to see it. Because it says they,

Kate Boyd: 50:29

there are many other women used to follow Him and provided for him when he was in Galilee. And so that provided is literally served, which also mirrors some of the other times that he's been served in different spaces, but at least but provided for so like they're not, you know, passive people there with him. And they're actually providing and taking care of Jesus and the people with him, presumably. I mean, they're, and this happens a lot. I mean, we look at like Lydia, and all of them right there. They end up funding Paul's ministry, there's a lot of women involved doing a lot of things that we don't necessarily expect them to be doing. But we should, yeah, we should. But that's a whole different discussion. We can we can, we'll have that one another time. One of these days, we'll go through some of Paul, and we'll, we'll have long conversations about that, I imagine. Um, yeah, so then we've got sort of a great commission kind of thing. And we've got the ascension. Um, you know, we're getting some of the little bits that we would, that we would see in some of the other gospels that aren't at least the Synoptic ones.

Amanda Waldron: 51:47

Yeah. And this one talks about, yeah, they went everywhere, preaching everywhere, and the Lord worked with them, and confirmed his word by the signs that accompanies it.

Unknown: 52:00

Yeah.

Kate Boyd: 52:03

And then he was taken up into heaven. Good stuff. Alright, Gil, me thought and, uh, we thought something for you and something for you and community or us as a community?

Jill Richardson: 52:16

Yeah, so I mean, I already sort of went into my image, I thought just the idea of, of what did it take for Joseph for these women to stay and not not try to maintain their safety, not try to, to manage the risks, as opposed to the crowds as opposed to the leaders. That's all they wanted to do. So for me, that means Okay, how do I do that? How do I not become part of the mob? I hold on to my identity and my core beliefs and my integrity and, and filter everything through that. And yeah, and be that person who stays, you know, so that's, that's, I want to have that bridge. That's my knees. Yeah. What about your we, um, my, we thought, wow, this was huge to me, really. The relevance to to abuse victims right now. strikes me in this in this story, like, like, first, you've got, again, this council that's trying to not tell the truth, but damage, control and save power. And that's so much sounds like a lot of what goes on these days, when abuse victims come forth. And they say, Hey, this is what is happening to me. And they get stonewalled, because this is our power, and we're gonna maintain it and they get accused, you know, and look at what they do with Jesus. Like, they falsely accuse Him, they try to ruin his reputation. They tell everyone in other chapters, he's demonic that Satan is the Father. They they tell the crowds, hey, we're the good guys here. And Jesus is being divisive. And hello, okay. Is that not? Is that not what's going on with and so it just, it hit me so hard that Jesus experienced so much abuse? Yeah. And he gets it and he knows it. And he and he can come alongside victims and be like, Yeah, I know. I know.

Unknown: 54:19

So yeah,

Kate Boyd: 54:20

Chief empathy. However, Jesus, he experienced it like that. He, he was right there and all of it. And I was like, and that's, you know, a few months ago when that empathy is a sin discussion. I was like, you guys like? No, we carnation is empathy by definition. I don't know how you can say that. Like humility. Oh, I don't understand why we're talking about this. Alright, Amanda, you're me and you're we

Amanda Waldron: 54:53

empathy, empathy, empathy. I feel like my me and why we are are the same

Kate Boyd: 54:59

thing. Probably, I mean, that's sort of where I'm leaning in this way in this section too.

Amanda Waldron: 55:05

Yeah, this idea of like, Okay, what do we what do we do with Jesus? Right? Like, if he if, if all of this is true, what do we do with Jesus? And I think, kind of in the, in the work in this new venture that I'm doing with this deconstruction of like, I think the thing that keeps me tied to my faith is like, No, I've seen what Jesus can do. And I don't think I can, like, fully, I can't step away from that, um, of like, here's all the evidence of what he's done in my life. And so what do we do with that? And also, I think there can be a little bit of that mob mentality that shows up with deconstruction as well. And so how do you stay grounded? And like, how has Jesus shown up in our lives? What have we experienced from him before? What we can we go back to to be like, no, here's this grounding point for me, even if everything else out here is swirling around. Yeah, like that. That's beautiful.

Kate Boyd: 56:06

Yeah, I mean, my me and my we are, are similar to yours. I think, for me, it's, you know, remembering to hang on to myself in spite of the crowd, right, and hang on to what I believe in. What I believe of Jesus, and how I serve Him, and, and all of that. And then I think the we, I just am so struck by the terror and amazement, right, like to be a place and this is kind of what plays into what you were saying, Amanda, I think we need to be a place where we can have both of those things at the same time and be able to have conversations, because there is this. I mean, we've been talking about before, there's tension, and all of it. And there's not a lot of I mean, it's really easy as a community to sort of, like, try to seek the mob mentality, you know, where we like, try to create that within ourselves so that we feel sure and competent and together and protected. Right? A

Amanda Waldron: 57:06

resolution, right? Yeah, guy can go through this. And this is what's true, versus like, maybe our job is to sit in that tension and to say, you

Kate Boyd: 57:14

know, I get it, and we have space for that, and let's talk about it. And maybe we don't land in one single place, but I think there's room for that, you know, and so holding this, like fear and amazement, instead of like, and I almost sort of feel like that's maybe like, the cure for the mob mentality, right is like creating a space where we can have all of those things together. So, you know, looking for that and community and trying to bring that to community to something that I tried to do. And just be like, you know, it's okay. You disagree. That's cool. Like, I my new thing is be free of the need to convince me like, just be free. You'll have to you'll have to do that. I'm convinced of what I'm, you know, and maybe we can talk but be free. So, yeah, um, yeah, really interesting. Thank you guys for the conversation. I enjoyed all of this. So thanks for hanging out. If you enjoyed our discussion, I'd love if you would rate and review the podcast on your favorite podcast player. This helps more people to find the show and learn along with us. Then come on over to social media, and let's talk about it. You can find me on Instagram at Kate Boyd Co. and on Twitter at BK Boyd. And don't forget to check the show notes to also follow and hang out with our contributors. Thank you so much for joining us.