Acts 3-4 | Scott Walters & Heather Lobe Johnson

Today I’m joined by Scott Walters and Heather Lobe Johnson. And the three of us talk about what it means to actually see people, how the Holy Spirit impacts the character development of Peter, and what radical prayer and generosity looked like in the early church.

Scott Walters is Professor Emeritus of Drama at the University of North Carolina Asheville, where he taught theatre history, play analysis, and directing for more than 20 years. He is the author of several articles in American Theatre Magazine, co-authored Introduction to Play Analysis and most recently edited and published Mark Twain & Me: Unlearning Racism by his mentor and friend Calvin Pritner. In addition to teaching at UNC Asheville, he also spent many years teaching in prisons near Asheville. Since retiring in 2020, he has been contemplating continuing his prison teaching and prison ministry.

Heather Lobe Johnson is a writer, speaker, and worship leader who believes God can redeem the most broken parts of our stories. She hosts the Take These Ashes podcast, loves a good chai latte, and lives in the mountains of Southwest Virginia with her husband and two boys. 

Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/take-these-ashes/id1529645880

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/heatherlobejohnson/

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Transcript

Kate Boyd: 0:06

You're listening to happy and holy the podcast where scripture comes to life through a small group discussion. This season as we're walking through the birth of the church, in the book of Acts, you get to be a fly on the wall to see what new things we learn with and from one another as we engage scripture in community. I'm your host, Kate Boyd. I'm a disciple maker, writer, and speaker who is making space in the church for Christians caught in the messy middle between conservative and progressive. We love Jesus love people, and work with God and each other for a better world. Welcome to the show. And hey, if you're a messy middle Christian like me, you may be looking for a safe space to explore your faith. And that's why I created the method messy, middle Christian community on Patreon. If you've listened to the show, before, you know we like bunny trails and rabbit holes related to the Bible, Christian history and how faith and life collide in unique ways. In this community, you can get access to weekly bunny trails, which are curated content to explore something new, and monthly rabbit holes, where I or some friends teach you about the many sides you can take on a Christian doctrine, themes and fun facts about specific books of the Bible, and how to look at them. And deep dives into topics or concepts from the Bible or church life today. Plus, you get the safety of a community doing the same thing right beside you. And you can join for as little as $5 a month and get curated adventures to discover more about what it means to follow Jesus in the messy middle. You can learn more today at patreon.com/messymiddlechristianwellon. Today's show, I am delighted and excited to be joined by Scott Walters and Heather lope. Johnson, as we talk about x three and four. Together, we discuss what it means to actually see people when we do ministry and in the work of discipleship, how the Holy Spirit impacts the character development of Peter, because it's quite a whiplash to who he was in the Gospels and who he's become, and what radical prayer and generosity looked like in the early church. I hope you enjoy our discussion. So let's go. Welcome everybody to today's discussion where we're going through x three and four. Which, I mean, like I've been, I probably will say this every episode, people will get tired of me saying it. But whereas there was a lot of action in Mark, it was compact, there's a lot of action in X, and it's not so compact. So we have a lot of ground to cover. But before we jump into that, I want my guests to introduce themselves to you. So Scott, why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Scott Walters: 3:03

Sure. I'm Scott Walters. I'm an emeritus professor of drama at the University of North Carolina, at Asheville, where I taught play analysis and I co authored a book on play analysis and theater history and directing. And in addition to teaching on campus, I've taught for 20 years in prisons around Asheville, everything from maximum security to minimum security in youth prisons. In fact, at one point, I was considering seminary to focus on prison ministry. But for a variety of reasons, including COVID, I've decided not to go in that direction. And I'm very happy to be here.

Kate Boyd: 3:44

Yeah, thanks for being here. And I'm really excited to see your perspective from like the imaginative playwrights storyteller point of view, because we have a lot of stories, a lot of good stories. And Heather, why don't you tell us

Heather Lobe Johnson: 4:00

a little bit about you. Alright, well, I'm Heather Loeb Johnson and I am a mom of two kiddos, who are nine and one I'm a full time fundraiser by day for nonprofits and higher education. And then kind of my passion where my heart really is, is with working with women who are in recovery, just for my own story, with recovering from people pleasing and codependency and just some hard things I've walked through my heart is really towards women who see themselves as broken, but come to know through community and through Jesus that, you know, he has washed all of that away and can transform our lives. And so, so I podcast I have a podcast called take these ashes that really focuses on that healing piece of being in the ash and trying to get to the beauty that God has for us. And yeah, that's kind of the the juggling act that to do between motherhood and work. and ministry. Yeah.

Kate Boyd: 5:03

Well, thank you guys for taking time out of your very full schedules to join us. And we're gonna jump right in to act three. And Scott, if you will do us the honor of recapping what's happening in chapter three, and then start talking about it.

Unknown: 5:22

So x three is sort of a relatively short chapter that's broken into two scenes. One is a healing. And the other is a sermon, or a speech, I guess. The first scene takes place at 3pm. And the apostles Peter and John are heading to the temple through one of the entrances called the Beautiful Gate, which I just think is the best name ever. And at the same time, a 40 year old beggar who has been lame since birth, is being brought to that place to beg for arms. And the bigger calls out to the apostles and asks them for something, and they stop and they look intently at the beggar and then instruct the beggar to look at them. And he does expecting to receive some money. But instead, Peter says that he doesn't have any money to give them. But what he has is this, and then he says, In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, stand up and walk, and boom, he jumps to his feet, walking and praising God. The second scene then happens right on the heels of that the people have who are around it, follow them to Solomon's portico within the temple gates, and they're all like holy cow, which has happened, and, and Peter turns on them or turns to them, but it feels more like turns on them, and delivers this sermon in which he gives Jesus the credit for having healed the beggar. And then castigates the people for their role in killing Christ basically, that they forced the pilot to execute Him, even though he had decided to release Him. And I imagine, after all, the excitement in the celebration of the healing, sort of appalled silence false after Peter delivers this sort of condemnation, but then he gives them a way to repent, he says that they acted in ignorance, so did their leaders. And besides, the whole thing went down in order to fulfill the prophecy that the Messiah would suffer, so it's not too late. And he lays out all the prophecies that were fulfilled by Jesus, and why they, his descendants of the prophets should now follow Jesus. And that's the end of the first chapter three.

Kate Boyd: 7:53

Yeah, there's a yeah, there's a lot. Um, and I think it's a pattern to that we'll see more in Acts. And I mean, later today, I'm recording on chapters 13, and 14, which have sort of a similar feel, but with Paul instead of Peter. And so it definitely seems to be like a pattern that Luke is picking up and sharing with us. And I think it's, I am always struck by the attention that Peter and John give this beggar who's been sitting there. And, and one commentator I was reading was talking about how, like, their first job was to see and even when they like, walked up to him, you know, when they said, No, we don't have that, that his tendency was probably to start scanning the crowd to see other people and they're like, no, stop, look at me, I have something good to give you. Um, and how that sort of like the work of discipling or like, even being a disciple is to see people. And I find that very striking. And I know, you've got some thoughts on that. Don't use Scott, from your, your playwright play. Perspective.

Scott Walters: 9:19

Yeah, I mean, I have a tendency to visualize these scenes as if maybe I was filming them. And it's sort of an interesting that way to visualize, like, if I was, what shots would I be doing and what would this look like? And, and I think that you've pointed out a really important thing is that, first of all, they're arriving from different places. And it's not it does not sound to me, at least as if the beggar is already in place. Like he's being carried there at the same time, that that the apostles are arriving, and he sort of hails them like, hey, you know how About a little bit and a little bit of something. And there seems then to be sort of four stages to this scene. And the first one, you've you've just mentioned, Peter and John, look at the beggar. And if you look at different translations, it's, it always, it always sounds as if it's very intense, that it's an intense look, it isn't just, they looked at him, but that, that they looked at, at him intense, intently. And, and so it's not just a casual thing. And then they tell the big beggar to look at them. Right? In any does and all the all of the translations have look at us as translated exactly the same way. So that implies a couple of things. One, the beggar isn't looking directly at them yet. And and I think that if you've ever, you know, if you live in a big city, for instance, and you encounter beggars on the street, that's the tradition, right is that you don't really make direct eye contact, because that implies a sort of equal status, that you you lower yourself, you lower your eyes, maybe you don't even address them, you've got a sign in front of you that says, Any help is, you know, is welcome or whatever. So this moment where it says, look at us, and they look sort of raises him in a lot of ways, like what you were, you were saying, Katie said, the raise, he sees them, and he allows himself to the to be seen, they allow themselves to be seen, right? It's a, it's a, an equal sort of thing. And then the third thing is the declaration, I don't have this, you know, I have no money, but here's what I've got stand up and walk. And then the healing. And in that moment is really interesting to me, because I noticed in Acts particularly, there are a lot of what seemed like stage directions, right? I mean, there's a, there's a lot of detail about how things are done. It's not just dialogue, or, or the story is really fleshed out. And he says that they're facing each other, they're looking into each other's eyes, and he takes the beggar by the right hand. So if you visualize that, a right hand coming down and reaching in, in taking the right hand of the beggar and pulling him to his feet, as he declares him healed, that if you do that, you will end up face to face. And, and we see a little bit later that they are sort of in an embrace the three of them as the crowd comes running to them. But it is an intense sort of eye contact, of bringing raising someone and being face to face. And I just find that really interesting. Because as you were saying, kid, I think part of healing is seeing and being seen, right, there is an equal sort of thing. And in that sometimes we don't allow ourselves to be in that city. And we think we're helping by simply I don't know what, giving putting money in their hat, right or something like that. But you don't really make eye contact with somebody. If you're feeding the homeless, you're behind the table, and you're scooping things up, but you don't really eat with them and talk with them. Right in this this moment, which seems to me is if it reflects what Jesus taught them how Jesus taught them to heal. Seems like it gives us a pretty strong model of what it is to help what it is to heal what it is to help people, you know, be brought back into the community.

Kate Boyd: 14:05

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I think those are great points. Um, I mean, if we, if, if we're even looking back to like, the last season we did on Mark, what you see a lot is Jesus goes in to a place, he does a bunch of healings, and then he does teaching, right. And for the proclaiming of the good news, and so it's very, they're, they seem to be following his pattern and a lot of ways and then even my other favorite detail of the story is that he, you know, is like leaping and jumping, you know, and and praising God, right? Like his, his healing is full and it's complete. And you've gone from this person that nobody sees to the person that everybody's looking at to a prominent, you know, Proclaimer of good news that because he's experienced it, and I, I just love how, like it was sort of flipped around from like, no one seeing him to being seen and then being seen by everybody. Such an interesting story here that goes, I think beyond the healing, which is important, and it brings him back into the community. Because it's like, because it may have been that as a disabled person, he may not have really been considered pure enough to go into the temple, but now he's like, at full status with everyone under the law. But he doesn't even need the law anymore, cuz he's got something better, which is great. And Peter, as he does takes advantage of the opportunity to boldly start talking, um, Heather, what in the speech? What, um, as we sort of pivot to that, was there anything there that stood out to you?

Heather Lobe Johnson: 16:02

So, when I was reading through both of our chapters for our conversation, the thing that really grabbed me was Peters boldness and his confidence and courage and really just not holding back at all kind of calling people out and saying the truth. And I'm not a Bible scholar, I went to Christian college, but I didn't, I really did not tap into the part of my, my biblical teaching there that would have given me insight to know, is this this same Peter that in, you know, the Gospels was, you know, denying Christ and unsure. And so I really dug in a little bit more to just make sure like, are we talking about the St. Peter here, and I went back and looked at the Gospels. And when Peter is guess, I guess, like, recruited, pulled in by Jesus, he's a fisherman, and his name's Simon. And Jesus calls him, he says, Here's John 143 42, Jesus looked at him again, there's that looking and said, he sees him for who he is, and who he's going to be. You are Simon, the son of John, you shall be called Sisyphus, which in Aramaic is the Aramaic version of it, or the Greek version is Petra or Peter, which means rock. And in all four of the Gospels, we see the story of Peter denying Christ. And then in the in the gospels, I feel like he was anything but Iraq, you know, like he was kind of impulsive and unstable and unsure, but acts like we really see him living into what Jesus called him to be. And I feel like we see that in this sermon, we see that in the way that he proclaims. Like, even in the story, we just read about the beggar saying, I don't possess silver and gold, but what I do have I give you and so he's, like, so confident in knowing that Jesus was with him and walked with him and changed his life and called that transformation over him. And now he's able to give that to other people. So I don't know, I think that that was just like, fun for me to dig into was his name and figuring out that Jesus named him like, not for who he was, but what he was going to become. And that's, I don't know, that's something that I really loved seeing in these chapters.

Scott Walters: 18:30

I mean, I when I read it, it felt it felt to me as if it was a huge do over for me. Right, like, like, here's your you've been arrested. So like, this could go really wrong. Right? It could go exactly the way that it went for Jesus. And instead of trying to escape, he stands there. And defies them. Right. I mean, he really, which

Heather Lobe Johnson: 18:55

requires so much courage and boldness. Yeah, yeah.

Scott Walters: 18:59

I mean, it's and then when they come back after they've met, right, and they're like, alright, well, you can still heal people, but don't do it in the name of Jesus. And he's like, Well, no, that's not gonna work. Right. And you know that Do you know what I mean? It were it could have been pretty easy to go okay. No problem. I mean, we'll just keep out of the way but he's defiant now. I mean, he is he's become that rock that you were that you were talking about. You know, that is really cool to see.

Kate Boyd: 19:33

I first of all, I love how you sort of connected that sort of seeing thing. Like Jesus sees theater and so that sort of obviously goes really well what we were talking before I love that connection. I think the other thing is I I sort of there's always Peter always had like those spurts right of like this competence and boldness and he's like, no, no, Jesus, no one's gonna take you or let me out there on that. that water, right? Like, he has those moments, but then he sort of shirts back from it right, which sort of culminates in, obviously his denial of Jesus. But I think what's also important to remember is that at this point in the story, two key things have changed that give him that confidence, right? Jesus has been resurrected, and the Holy Spirit has come. And so I think when you have those things, now we see Peter in his fullness, and his confidence, is it rooted in himself anymore, right? It's rooted in the resurrected Jesus and the Holy Spirit that's empowered him, which I mean, we're coming right out of chapter two, right? Where Pentecost has happened, Peter gave an amazing sermon. And the gospel is now going out to the nations from that central place. And so x three sort of gathers that back into Jerusalem for a minute. But I think, when we talk about this big transformation, and Peter, we need to remember that those are things that it really took. And those are things that we have access to already, right. Like, we also have the resurrected Jesus. And we also have the Holy Spirit. And so there's this sort of seeing the fullness of everything, which is also what he addresses in the speech, right? Like you have seen all of this. And even turning the prophecies of their old scripture on, well, it's our current scripture to so I shouldn't say old scripture, of their scripture of the day, you know, their old prophecies and showing their culmination in Jesus, and, and not letting anybody off the hook for their role in the death of Jesus. But how even that gave us new life, and Jesus came back to life, and then giving them a chance to repent, which I think is such a, I mean, it is really is really easy to stay in your anger and disdain for people. And he's like, No, there's something even better out there to give that forgiveness and move it forward. So I really love that and that he even even Peter, who is really strong in Jerusalem, right, and the, the very Jewish part of Christianity is including Gentiles and everything at this, and I think that's really interesting. Anything else from chapter three? Before we move to Chapter Four,

Heather Lobe Johnson: 22:38

I was just gonna make one more comment about I didn't pick up on this one when I was reading, but now that we're talking about it, in in his sermons, Peter calls people to repentance, just turning away from like, the old way that they were living in the sin and their brokenness and turning to Jesus, who's the transformer of our brokenness and the one who redeems us. And I was thinking, like, the fact that Peter has been through what he's been through, and the fact that he has messed up. And, you know, I think that makes it even more powerful that he's the one calling them to this because he's not doing it from a place of perfection, or of having it all together. But from someone who knows the power of repentance perfect.

Kate Boyd: 23:20

Yeah. Do we say empathetic?

Scott Walters: 23:24

Yeah, well, right. I'm in it, you know, there. Yeah, I taught when I was teaching in the prison, I taught a course called the hero's journey. That also, in addition to looking at the Joseph Campbell's structure of the hero's journey, had various archetypes, and one of the archetypes is the orphan. And the orphan is the archetype of the hero, who has been betrayed by someone who was important to them, and descends into an orphan. But from that to it, or as a result of that develops empathy for others who have become orphan themselves, right, who are experiencing some sort of pain or betrayal. And I mean, Peters brokenness from having made this big. You know, this big mistake is important. But I found myself just thinking in the intern in those terms about that part of it, of both Abraham Joshua Heschel and Walter Brougham, mom's concept of prophetic speech and prophetic imagination that always has two parts. One is to describe as powerfully as you can, why everything is a total mess. Right? And then the second part is to say, but here's a vision of, of Heaven base of the gospel of the world healed, and it felt to me like Peter did the same thing there was like, here's what happened. Here's why. You can have this chance to be healed. You can feel the same way I just feel this

Kate Boyd: 25:11

are you disentangling your faith from the culture around you? Well, when I was doing that, and as I continue to do that, in my life, the greatest tool for me in that journey was the Bible itself. You've probably noticed here on the show that we love the Bible, and we take it seriously. But we don't always take it literally. And that means that meaning can get a little complicated. You don't have to let that overwhelm you. I put together the big picture, Bible toolkit to help you understand how all of Scripture fits together in one incredible story. And help you learn some new questions to ask to get it meaning without getting overwhelmed. And I put together a special Bible reading plan to help you see new connections between the Old and New Testament. If you're ready to get back to the basics of your faith, the Bible is a great place to start. And the big picture Bible toolkit can help you as you go, you can grab yours today for free at Kate boyd.co/biblechapterfourheatherwhy. Don't you recap that for it? Alright,

Heather Lobe Johnson: 26:19

so chapter four. I know Scott was kind of talking in scenes or sections, Chapter Four comes in three sections. So the first part is where Peter and John are rested from what not just what they did with the healing, but the fact that they were preaching about Jesus's resurrected life. No, the the Jewish community was not accepting of that piece, especially that they were preaching. So this is the first time that we're seeing any type of real persecution in the early church with that arrest. And then the second part is where Peter responds, and they're released. And then the third part is kind of this sharing among believers, where we're seeing more of the growth and community in the early church. So that first section, where Peter and John are arrested, I think what's really cool is even though they're arrested, and the Sadducees, and the church leaders really want to kind of suppress and dampen down that message getting out it's too late, because it says in First for many of those who'd heard the message believed in the number of the men came to be about 5000. And at Pentecost, it was 3000. So that means 2000 People from the result of seeing this, this beggar, being able to walk and hearing Peters message, have really caught on to it and believed, which is really powerful. And then when they are, you know, before the the church leaders, Peter and John are being asked to stop talking about this. And Peter boldly says, We cannot stop speaking about what we have seen and heard. And I think that something else that's really cool in that section is you know, the this, let me see if I can find the exact reverse if I wrote this down. First their team, as they observe the confidence of Peter and John and understood that they were uneducated and untrained men, they were amazed and began to recognize them as having been with Jesus. And what I really liked about that is we just talked about Peter was a fisherman. So the fact that he is continually referencing back to what the prophets spoke of what was to happen, like that was from him spending years with Jesus, and learning and absorbing everything that he learned from Jesus, which I thought was just really cool. And then yeah, they are eventually released, because there's basically no reason that they can be held. And we see in that sharing among believers, we see the congregation they're just really starting to share property and food and just spending time together. And we're seeing that there's this love that's developing between them and this care for each other, which is really cool.

Kate Boyd: 29:07

Let's start with Peter and John before the council, right. So we see them being encountered with, like, with. Gosh, was it Sadducees? And

Heather Lobe Johnson: 29:23

just the people because the temple to captain the Temple Guard and the Sadducees. Yeah. And there before the scribes and rulers and elders, and the high priest was there. Yeah, so

Kate Boyd: 29:36

there's a lot happening. Scott, what sort of, I think you sort of touched on some of this before we were talking about the border,

Unknown: 29:42

dude, I apologize. I jumped. Fine.

Kate Boyd: 29:45

Because I think I think it's helpful that these are together because we're kind of, you know, from a character development perspective, we're seeing sort of this, you know, boldness not only when he's not in competition conflict with people. But now, which I do think in a way mirrors, you know, when he was in having his denying right, it was at a point of potential conflict and risk for him. And now we're seeing him flip. Right. And now that there's conflict and risk he's going all in. And I really love that. And so yeah, what or was there anything else you sort of noticed about? In this whole? This little episode?

Scott Walters: 30:30

With? No back? I want to I have a question, actually, that we could talk about which Yeah, I mean, you go back to to the verse 13, that you just just brought up. It's, it's I, what I'm curious about is why their lack of education was important to the temple leaders for I mean, what, like you almost it, it almost feels in the way that that verse is written, as if that is a mitigating factor, like they're not there. They're not educated, which I guess means that they are not part of the leadership class, in any sort of way. And so in they they got all of this from Jesus himself, but it's almost as if then they're more willing to allow them to be released. Because of that. I was curious about that, like, what's, what's the alternative? If they had been educated? Men? What would the temple leaders have? How would they have responded differently? Right? Would they have been like harsher with them? Why is that an important thing?

Kate Boyd: 31:53

So, again, I'm going to fast forward a little because I've also been looking at Chapters 13 and 14 for this week. And we see something similar, again, with Paul and how he comes into a synagogue. And it mentioned something about him being there, like seeing that he's educated, they invited him to speak, right. And so it, I think there may be some of that sort of dynamic at play here, though, that they're sort of in Jerusalem, whereas Paul was sort of in a, you know, diaspora, like someplace else on his first missionary journey in that instance. And I. So I think a, there is a only educated people can talk to us about these things, because that's important. And then I think B on the other hand, I do think that the fact that they're uneducated is also a threat to them in a way, because if uneducated people can get 5000 3000, however many people to raise up and start following what they're preaching, that's obviously a threat to the temple and the order the status quo that this council is trying to fight for, which is why they're like, just don't talk about it again, and you'll be fine. And they're like, Sorry, bro, can't do that. Because that's not that's not what I'm being asked to do. And so I think, so I do think there is this sort of tension of like, they're surprised. And, and they're also a little fearful. And so they just sort of think if they can, you know, get them to not talk about it, they can squash it, because otherwise they wouldn't have been respectable people to talk to them like this, you know.

Scott Walters: 33:42

And they're scared to write I mean, they said something in there about, we're, you know, the, we're surrounded by all these people, all these believers, and if we It's not unlike what happens to Jesus, where they're like, Well, you know, we'll wait until he's alone to come and get them because all the people are too threatening they seem to be right and so in contrast, Peters boldness, they are cowardly, right, we've got a total flip of the of the situation according to who it is who's got power now. And in possibly in, in relationship to the Holy Spirit and epiphany and everything, this everything is flipped, right there all the power it's changed,

Kate Boyd: 34:31

which I think is also interesting, because they I mean, in verse 16, you know, they said, What will we do with them, but it's obvious to all who live in Jerusalem that a notable sign has been done through them, we cannot deny it. And but then they say, but to keep it from spreading further among the people. So it's also interesting to me is they have seen the sign they have had all the same opportunity, and yet their response is very different than say The 5000 people, right then we've seen so far, like they had the opportunity to repent and believe. And they chose to sort of double down on their own thing. Which I think is fascinating in this too.

Heather Lobe Johnson: 35:15

I would just read was reading, when you were talking about that power shift, Scott. After Paul, or after Peter and John are released, they go back to their companions and report what happened. And then one of them referenced. This is basically what we knew was going to happen. And so he references back to something in Psalms and it says, this is in verse 25, and 26. Or actually, I'll start at verse 24. It says, When they heard this, they lifted their voices to God with one accord and said, Oh, Lord, it is you who made the heaven and earth and see and all that is in them, who by the Holy Spirit through the mouth of our father, David, your servant said, why did the Gentiles rage and the people devise futile things? The king of the earth took their stand and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord and against his Christ. So they're finally seeing like, this is what happens when the kingdoms upside down. And we're like, seeing it kind of lived out now. And were part of it. I don't know, kind of neat to see that. Like, they're recognizing what's happening. And I really like in, can I share another verse that stuck out to me, yeah, verse 29, the prayer that they they pray, it says, And now Lord, take note of their threats and grant that your bond servants may speak your word with all competence, while you extend your hand to heal and signs and wonders take place through the name of your holy servant Jesus. So and after that, the room that they're in starts to shake, which is just incredible, like the Holy Spirit is very clearly present there and with them, and I think God wanted to make sure that they knew I'm listening, I'm with you. This is bigger than just you kind of standing up, like, I'm doing this, this is through me. But I just I really love that prayer, though. Like they we speak your word with all competence and know that you're doing the miracles, you're the one that's acting through us, but give us the competence to act it out.

Scott Walters: 37:14

The, just as another observation. Chapter Four, is dangerous in a lot of ways, like a lot of preachers get really nervous about, you know, verse 32, and thereafter, write that stuff about in the shared all of their, every all of their goods and distributed according to who needed it. Right. And then in the next, it's like, it's the next chapter, we get to the husband and wife who sell their who sell their land in in give, like, 90% of it, but keep a little bit back. And, you know, and Peter and John, like, I don't want to say kill them, but like, they die. Right? You know, everybody is like, Oh, wow. So, you know, you know, I guess we could just look at that as like, really serious stewardship. Season. But, but I mean, that, that model of, of how to live, that is described, very clearly, there is something that we would just sort of like to pass right over and never in sort of make out, like, if I have, you know, a bunch of books that are for reference in looked at that. It was from the 1950s. And, you know, there was all this sort of dancing about, well, you know, it wasn't the government who was doing it and all that, you know, because the, you know, the fears, like, left socialism, right, in the 50s. Were in the midst of the Cold War. And this is all crazy. But it's an image of community of equality, that we've just seen in the healing. And we end in in the midst of all of this. That's a lot of people, five events, five, I mean, I made it eight, because I thought they had three before and now they got another five. So now they got 1000, who are who are on the side, but regardless, I mean, I mean, that led me to look to find out how many people are in Jerusalem at this time. And you know, scholars are all over the map about that. But it's a chunk. I mean, that's a lot of people if that's, it is accurate at all. And so you put those two things together, they're creating an alternate Society, an alternate way of living. That's very different from the sort of top down the temple leaders have lots of money and everybody else gives them more. And there's much more about an equal sharing, which I found really, really powerful.

Kate Boyd: 39:53

Yeah, we talked about this in when we were talking about chapters one and two because they also mentioned how Everyone would sell things so that no one went without like, so that every person had what they needed. Um, and just like, it wasn't necessarily, it wasn't about people being forced to give up stuff or live together or whatever it was about that they wanted to do that, that they were creating this alternate society. And I think we see that a lot, especially if you're in the language a little, um, like, the words that they use for things are are words that were used in society, but they're using them in an alternate way. I mean, even the word gospel. Un Galleon comes from the proclamation of the birth of a king. That's where it comes from, in in their hit in society at the time. So for them to co opt that for Jesus was a big deal. And the same thing with the word that we now translate Church, which really just meant assembly, but that was also what they called, sort of, like their government, their, like, city government meetings, and where they got together and decided things or societies that came together, you know, over interests and whatnot. So they're taking, they're using the language available to them, but they are remaking it in a Christ formed community. And so we see the effects of a lot of that together in all this stuff, too. And I think we even see how they kind of were doing this. And if we rewind a little bit back to where they're praying for boldness, and they are fully aware that they are not going to be able to fully integrate into society in the way that they did before. Because even in this, they're like, they were told not to talk about it anymore. And they're like, well, we got to pray for boldness, then. Because we need to do that instead of being like, well, I guess we should find like secret ways to do this. And like, go and be like super spies, or just sort of blend in and have our little meeting, and just sort of like, you know, see what happens. And they're like, No, we need to pray for fullness in this mission, we are focused, and that they all did it sort of together. And and that God recognizes it, right, we see the room shake the holy and the Holy Spirit, again, comes and fills for what's coming ahead. Because, yeah, a couple chapters from now is when the real big persecution kicks off in like chapter seven. So we're coming up to some really big things. And so I just love that their response was, okay, well, instead of finding a super strategy for making this work within our confines, we're just going to forget about the confines and go about our business. Because after we're supposed to do,

Scott Walters: 42:53

it sort of feels like the days of the upper room are over. Yeah, just hide up, get behind a locked door. We got to get out there.

Kate Boyd: 43:04

And the Holy Spirit right, the Holy Spirit invaded the upper room and push them out. So here we are two chapters later. Seeing that, yeah, and the sharing of possessions, ay, ay ay ay, I love how they talk about in verse 32. Now the whole group of those who believed were of one heart and soul. And that's sort of like, how they felt but then the way that that it plays out is that no one claimed private ownership and everything was held in common and and then they also went out and gave their testimony to the resurrection. So it sort of mirrors a little bit of what we see at the end of chapter two, where we're seeing like the breaking of bread, the devotion to teaching the devotion to prayer, and and they care for one another. And so I like how work I guess I should say, I like how Luke is so orderly and he's like, very precise, and he like it knows exactly what he's trying to accomplish. And and so we sort of see those implications at different points throughout the story, and they they keep repeating so it does make you wonder if it's repeated a few times maybe we should pay attention like desire to to be this way

Scott Walters: 44:34

is it am I remembering correctly that in the in Luke's gospel that he's really orderly there to like the the whole the days of the Holy Week and everything happens is almost time stamped. You know, it's like at three o'clock this happened and at midnight this happen and these, I mean, he seems to be the the guy who is the historian, you know,

Kate Boyd: 45:00

orderly writer, even his even his writing is like he follows the rules, billing tools, which is very helpful to me. Because Paul is all over the place, you can't figure out what goes with what kind of outfit? Um, okay, anything else from chapters three and four? Do you get over and you guys want to talk about?

Scott Walters: 45:25

Well, I guess I have one more question. I just always get fascinated by these sorts of details that get mentioned. And the very last verse four is where the the beggars ages very specifically mentioned, you know, the say something about

Kate Boyd: 45:49

Chapter.

Scott Walters: 45:53

No, I think it's the end of chapter four, for the man on whom this sign of healing had been performed, was more than 40 years old.

Heather Lobe Johnson: 46:03

Oh, it's verse 22. Yeah, yeah.

Scott Walters: 46:07

Yeah. And, and I, I'm just fat. I'm fasting, like, what is Do you Do either of you know whether that particular age is important in any way. I mean, 40, of course, has all kinds of resonance there. Throughout the Bible, the 40 days and 40 nights and all 40 kind of comes up a lot. But I'm just that. It just seemed like one of those details again, that Luke puts in there. And I'm like, What is that about? Like, what if he was 25? Like, is that just saying, he's been around so long? Everybody knows that he was, you know, he couldn't walk for all of these years. It's not like somebody was planted there or something like that.

Kate Boyd: 46:52

I mean, I have some guesses. Heather, what do you think?

Heather Lobe Johnson: 46:55

I would think that it's what you were just saying, Scott of like, we've seen him around. He's been around long enough that a couple of generations now know who he is know that he can't walk? That's part of probably how I would interpret that. Yeah.

Kate Boyd: 47:09

Yeah. That seems to be what other people indicated when I was reading through that it's 40, we know is used a lot. So like 40 days, 40 years, it generally just means sometimes it's symbolic, in the sense of it was a really long time. And we don't want to count it all up. But that's kind of what it is. But it does seem to be representative of like a lifetime, right? Like a. So in the sense of like, you guys were booked, saying he was a very familiar face, because he's been blind for his whole life or lane for his whole life. And also then would have probably been begging for a really long time in that same place. So he was a very familiar person. He wasn't just some random, disabled guy, he's actually probably been there for a very, very long time. So this, it seems to have been kind of indicative of like, not just his whole life having been a part of this, but that he's been familiar to this community in one specific way. Even if 40 is a symbolic number, that's sort of what it gets into.

Heather Lobe Johnson: 48:23

One last verse that I just wanted to point out was just verse 33, of chapter four. And so it says, With great power, the apostles were giving testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. And I think the thing that is so key to all of these early chapters is why people were so enthralled by what was happening wasn't just that these apostles were doing miracles in the name of Jesus, but it's the teaching about the resurrection. That's like mind blowing, it shifts everything to think about the fact that this man died and came back to life and gave us the life. Yeah,

Kate Boyd: 49:01

and it would have also been extra. I think that's why they maybe mentioned the sad UCS specifically because for them, that's sort of like an extra red flag, because they don't really believe in that. Like, they're not believing in resurrection, the resurrection of even souls or whatever was kind of part of their what's part of what separated them from the other classes of leaders, religious leaders. And so I think that maybe is playing into part of that too. Yeah, one detail that was interesting to me at the end of Chapter Four is where we meet Barnabas for the first time and he becomes a player throughout acts. Um, but I'm so I was with with our Bible study that we do on Tuesday nights with some friends. We are going through numbers. And obviously there's a lot more repetition of rules and numbers as There is, in Exodus and Leviticus, there's a little bit more a numbers or a repetition of them. And it talked about how Levites weren't really to own land and to own property. And fast forward to here, we see that Barnabas is a Levite of Cyprus. And he owns property, which I thought was really interesting. So it's either A, it's maybe indicative of a shift in Judaism at the time because they're not you know, nomads any longer. And or it's maybe indicative of a shift in or how things may have been semi lacs about things with anyway, I thought I thought that was really interesting. Like a why mentioned Barnabas and why mentioned that he was a lead by I don't know. But that was a weird sort of thing that struck me as I was, as we're walking through those, these two things. That then he also sold the field and brought it and brought the money. So I think part of it is He was apparently a notable a notable ish person, or would be in this narrative. So this is an interesting way to introduce him, and show his sort of faithfulness in all of this. But also that he may have not technically been following the rules, but having property first. But it does set up like you said, Scott in a nice and Sapphira, which I'm really looking forward to talking to right, because it's kind of bananas. Um, okay, so, to wrap up, let's talk about some of our takeaways. And usually, we do this in a me thought and, uh, we thought so me, what are you taking away to implement? And, uh, we, how do you see this? What's the takeaway for you, in community with other people? So, Heather, why don't you talk to us about your meat and your wheat?

Heather Lobe Johnson: 52:12

Yeah. So when we were talking about having been with Jesus transformed Peter, and getting to see him really step fully into who he was called to be the courage and the confidence that we see in him the way he's just speaking and praying for boldness like that, really, I think convicted me. Because sometimes I, I live in a way that I think is more through the lens of seeing myself as that really broken person. Like before the fact that I know about the resurrection, and I've been with Jesus, and he calls me redeem them whole and, and so I think like seeing Peter really owning what Jesus has done for him and for us, and living with that boldness to speak of it really encouraged and challenged me. And then, kind of related to that, that prayer that he prays, when he's with that group of people after they've been released from prison that we already referenced in verse 29, of chapter four. And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that your bondservants may speak your word with all confidence. I, I belong to a really small church, that probably only has about 100 people. And it's very focused on discipleship and growing us deeper as Christians in our walks with the Lord and helping us really build community within our church. But something that my husband and I have been talking about a lot lately is we, we need to be encouraging our peers, like our small group or other people in our small little church to go out and speak with boldness about what God's doing. And I think like being able to see that prayer and say, like, let's apply that to our little city like we have. I mean, we're a medium sized city, I should shouldn't say little city,

Kate Boyd: 54:12

but not about your city, Heather.

Heather Lobe Johnson: 54:15

But just thinking about like, no one is going to come to know the name of Jesus, if you're not speaking about it, and we're not facing persecution, there's no reason we cannot speak that name and speak what he does for our lives. So I think that we is maybe specific to my church community and to our city where we live, but I'm sure it could apply to other people as well. Like, are you talking about the name of Jesus with boldness and what he's done in your life?

Kate Boyd: 54:44

Scott, how about you?

Unknown: 54:47

Well, the misstatement

Kate Boyd: 54:52

it's okay, if they're kind of the same that happens.

Scott Walters: 54:56

Well, the other the other one builds off of it. I'll start with, you know, I spent, as I mentioned, when I talked about who I was, I spent over 20 years teaching in various prisons. And when it came time for me to retire, which did not necessarily mean I was retiring from the prison, but retire from the university, they had a little event and and they went to some of the people who were still at the prison and asked if they had anything that they would like to have to write that could be read at this event. And one of the guys talked about how I was mainly discussion that we were doing, but that when he came to class once a week, he always made sure to choose a chair that was directly opposite me, so that he could look into my eyes. And also that I could see him during the discussion. And that the power of that of just somebody in a prison who is really feels unseen, the power of being seen was important enough to him for a dimension it. So for me, this the me statement is, I always have to remember to allow myself to see the people who are around me, right, that they're not just a label, not just that you, you know, I have to look and allow myself to be seen as well. The the we statement, I want to share us a story that I've in one of my favorite theatre books, which is a book called impro, which is about improvisations, written by a man named Keith Johnstone. And he has this short story that is called a psychotic girl. And in it, he says, I once had a close rapport with a teenager who seemed mad when she was with other people, but relatively normal when she was with me. One of the thing that amazed me was her perception this about other people, it was as if she was a body language expert. She described things about them, which she read from their movement and postures that I later found to be true. Although this was at the beginning of a summer school and none of us had ever met before. I'm remembering her now because of an interaction she had with a very gentle, motherly school teacher. I had to leave for a few minutes. So I gave the teenager my watch and said she could use it. To see I was away only for a very short time, and that the school teacher would look after her. We were in a beautiful garden where the teenager had just seen God. And the teacher picked a flower and said, Look at the pretty flower Betty, Betty filled with spiritual radiant said, all the flowers are beautiful. Ah, said the teacher blocking her. But this flower is especially beautiful. Betty rolled on the ground screaming and it took a while. It took a while sorry. to calm her, nobody seemed to notice that she was screaming, can't you see? Can you see that tendency to say this flower is particularly beautiful. Instead of we are surrounded by beauty seems really important for us as a group, that the this sort of better and worse. Choosing people, whether they are people who are, you know, incarcerated people, or homeless people and somehow treating them as if they are less sir, instead of full human beings, seeing their beauty seems to me to be really important.

Kate Boyd: 59:31

Yeah. I think my me is a sort of goes back to our discussion about Peter and talking about his life is now on the other side of Jesus and the Holy Spirit and just like remembering to anchor any sort of competence or things that I do in my life in those truths. So that As I move forward in whatever it, I'm doing that I've got that as the foundation instead of whatever it is that I'm doing. And then I think the other for the Wii, I think it's, um, I, I just love how it talked about that they were of one, you know, heart and mind or heart and soul. And, um, and then how that been played out in the way that they cared for and saw and equalized one another, right? They didn't keep their things from each other in order to make sure that everyone had what they needed. And so I just, I hope that the same is true of me and the communities that I'm a part of that in those times, that we remember that this even this truth about Jesus in the Holy Spirit, then pushes us toward unity on those things, but that it also shows up in tangible ways in the world in this remaking of society. And not in like a top down culture war. We're going to rule the world kind of way, but in a way that actually seeks to serve and elevate people. And I think that's really important. As the goal instead of the goal being let's be as big and as important as we want to be as we can be, so that we can influence things. I think sometimes we forget how much power we have on the grounds that it starts, like we were talking about before upside down, right, that it's bottom up. It's not top down for us. Yeah, we already have a ruler, we already have a king. We don't need to make ourselves that, you know,

Scott Walters: 1:01:46

right. I mean, Peter and John are not are not attacking the temple in the hopes of taking it over. Right? healing people that they encounter.

Kate Boyd: 1:01:55

Yeah. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you enjoyed this discussion, I would love it if you would rate and review the show on your favorite podcast player. You know the drill. This helps more people find the show and learn with us as we talk through Scripture. And then I would love if you came over on social media to talk about what your big takeaways were, what your main thought and we thought were from our discussion, or for when you dove into these chapters. You can find me on Instagram at Kate boyd.co and on Twitter at v Kate Boyd. And don't forget to check the show notes to find and follow today's contributors as well. Thank you for joining us.