Untidy Faith

Acts 5-6 | Kristyn DeNooyer and Trey Ferguson

November 08, 2021 Kate Boyd ⎜ Writer, Speaker, Bible Teacher, Biblical Community Coach Season 5 Episode 3
Acts 5-6 | Kristyn DeNooyer and Trey Ferguson
Untidy Faith
More Info
Untidy Faith
Acts 5-6 | Kristyn DeNooyer and Trey Ferguson
Nov 08, 2021 Season 5 Episode 3
Kate Boyd ⎜ Writer, Speaker, Bible Teacher, Biblical Community Coach

Today I’m joined by Kristyn DeNooyer and Trey Ferguson to talk through Acts 5 and 6. In this episode, we cover the curious case of Ananias and Sapphira, what happens when the status quo gets threatened by the Holy Spirit’s work, and how the early church handled a conflict about those who felt uncared for. 


Kristyn DeNooyer writes at the intersections of singleness, spiritual formation, and chronic pain. She holds degrees in English & Nonprofit Communications and Bible & Theology and owns a copywriting firm working with writers, small businesses, and nonprofits. Kristyn loves small-city living, ecumenicism, and contemplative rhythms. When not putting pen to paper she can be found hosting dinner parties, frequenting local businesses, and pursuing her Masters of Divinity at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. 

Facebook: Kristyn DeNooyer Instagram: @kristyn.denooyer Twitter: @KristynDenooyer Website: kristyndenooyer.com Substack: Neighboring.


Trey Ferguson is an avid indoorsman in Miami-Dade County, Florida. He serves on the pastoral staff at the Refuge Church in Homestead, Florida where he helps provide direction in the areas of communication and discipleship. Additionally, he is the co-host of the podcast Three Black Men: Theology, Culture, and the World Around Us and the host of The New Living Treyslation: Bona Fide Bible Talk with Pastor Trey. A graduate of the University of Miami and the Samuel DeWitt Proctor School of Theology at Virginia Union University, he is most proud of his wife Jessica and their children: Jasmyne, RJ, and Kylie.

Instagram: @PastorTrey05 Twitter: @PastorTrey05 Website: rfxmovement.com



If you enjoyed our discussion, I’d love if you would rate + review on your favorite podcast player. This helps more people to find the show and learn with us. 


Then come on over to social media and let’s talk about it! You can find me on Instagram @kateboyd.co and on Twitter @thekateboyd. And don’t forget to check the show notes to find and follow today’s contributors as well. Thank YOU for joining us, and I’ll see you next time.


If you’re a Messy Middle Christian like me and you’re looking for a safe space to explore your faith, then the Messy Middle Christian patreon is the way to go. If you’ve listened to the show before, you know we like bunny trails and rabbit holes related to the Bible, Christian history, and how faith and life collide in unique ways. In this patreon community, you can get access to weekly bunny trails - curated content to explore something new - and monthly rabbit holes where I or some friends teach you about the many sides you can take on a Christian doctrine, themes and fun facts about books of the Bible, and deep dives into topics or concepts from the Bible or church life today. Plus you get the safety of a community doing the same thing right beside you. You can join for as little as $5/month and get curated adventures to discover more about what it means to follow Jesus in the messy middle. Learn more at patreon.com/messymiddlechristians


Kate Boyd - Book | Bible Studies | Coaching | Newsletter | Instagram

Show Notes Transcript

Today I’m joined by Kristyn DeNooyer and Trey Ferguson to talk through Acts 5 and 6. In this episode, we cover the curious case of Ananias and Sapphira, what happens when the status quo gets threatened by the Holy Spirit’s work, and how the early church handled a conflict about those who felt uncared for. 


Kristyn DeNooyer writes at the intersections of singleness, spiritual formation, and chronic pain. She holds degrees in English & Nonprofit Communications and Bible & Theology and owns a copywriting firm working with writers, small businesses, and nonprofits. Kristyn loves small-city living, ecumenicism, and contemplative rhythms. When not putting pen to paper she can be found hosting dinner parties, frequenting local businesses, and pursuing her Masters of Divinity at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. 

Facebook: Kristyn DeNooyer Instagram: @kristyn.denooyer Twitter: @KristynDenooyer Website: kristyndenooyer.com Substack: Neighboring.


Trey Ferguson is an avid indoorsman in Miami-Dade County, Florida. He serves on the pastoral staff at the Refuge Church in Homestead, Florida where he helps provide direction in the areas of communication and discipleship. Additionally, he is the co-host of the podcast Three Black Men: Theology, Culture, and the World Around Us and the host of The New Living Treyslation: Bona Fide Bible Talk with Pastor Trey. A graduate of the University of Miami and the Samuel DeWitt Proctor School of Theology at Virginia Union University, he is most proud of his wife Jessica and their children: Jasmyne, RJ, and Kylie.

Instagram: @PastorTrey05 Twitter: @PastorTrey05 Website: rfxmovement.com



If you enjoyed our discussion, I’d love if you would rate + review on your favorite podcast player. This helps more people to find the show and learn with us. 


Then come on over to social media and let’s talk about it! You can find me on Instagram @kateboyd.co and on Twitter @thekateboyd. And don’t forget to check the show notes to find and follow today’s contributors as well. Thank YOU for joining us, and I’ll see you next time.


If you’re a Messy Middle Christian like me and you’re looking for a safe space to explore your faith, then the Messy Middle Christian patreon is the way to go. If you’ve listened to the show before, you know we like bunny trails and rabbit holes related to the Bible, Christian history, and how faith and life collide in unique ways. In this patreon community, you can get access to weekly bunny trails - curated content to explore something new - and monthly rabbit holes where I or some friends teach you about the many sides you can take on a Christian doctrine, themes and fun facts about books of the Bible, and deep dives into topics or concepts from the Bible or church life today. Plus you get the safety of a community doing the same thing right beside you. You can join for as little as $5/month and get curated adventures to discover more about what it means to follow Jesus in the messy middle. Learn more at patreon.com/messymiddlechristians


Kate Boyd - Book | Bible Studies | Coaching | Newsletter | Instagram

Kate Boyd:

You're listening to happy and holy the podcast where scripture comes to life through a small group discussion. This season, we are walking through the birth of the church in the book of Acts, and you get to be a fly on the wall to see what new things we learn with and from one another as we engage scripture and community. I'm your host and discussion facilitator Kate Boyd. I'm a disciple maker, writer and speaker who is making space in the church for Christians caught in the messy middle between conservative and progressive. We love Jesus, love people, and work with God and each other for a better world. Welcome to the show. If you are also in the messy middle like me, you might be looking for a safe safe space to explore your faith. If that's the case, then the messy middle Christian community might be for you. If you've listened to the show before you know that we like bunny trails and rabbit holes related to the Bible, Christian history, and how faith and life collide in unique ways. In this Patreon community, you can get access to weekly bunny trails, which are curated content to explore something new, and monthly rabbit holes where I or some friends teach you about the many sides you can take on Christian doctrine, themes and fun facts about books of the Bible, and deep dives into topics or concepts from the Bible or church life today. You get the safety of community doing the same thing right beside you as a bonus, you can join for as little as $5 a month and get curated adventures to discover more about what it means to follow Jesus in the messy middle. You can learn more at patreon.com/messy Middle Christian. Okay, for today's show, I am joined by Kristen DeNooyer and Trey Ferguson, as we talk through x five and six. In this episode, we cover the curious case of Ananias and Sapphira. What happens when the status quo gets threatened by the Holy Spirit's work, and how the early church handled a conflict about those who felt uncared for. I really enjoyed this conversation. So I hope you do too. Welcome, everybody. Today, we are in Acts five and six. And we've got a lot of great stories to cover. And but before we do, I want to introduce my guests, my contributors to the discussion today. And so Trey, why don't you tell us about yourself?

Trey Ferguson:

For sure. I'm Trey Ferguson. I'm on the pastoral staff at the refuge church here in Homestead, Florida, where I give oversight and direction in areas of discipleship as well as communications and whatever the lead pastor Jeremy and doesn't feel like doing pretty much everywhere I can. Yeah, I'm down here with my wife, three pretty dope kids. I am a tortured fan of the Miami Hurricanes, few other squads as well. I'm also one of the three hosts of three black men podcast as well as my podcast, spin off podcast, the New Living Translation. And yeah, may not be joking a lot. I say.

Kate Boyd:

Kristin, how about you?

Kristyn DeNooyer:

Yeah, so I'm Kristin DeNooyer. I live in Grand Rapids, Michigan, and professionally, I'm a copywriter. So I run a little communications firm work with nonprofits, small businesses and writers. But I'm also an MD PhD student at Gordon Conwell Theological Seminary. And I do some writing around singleness, spiritual formation and chronic pain when I have time as well.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, fun. We have similar backgrounds. I also do a lot of copywriting and I'm also a student. So fun, okay. Because we have a lot to cover. Trey, why don't you recap chapter five for us? And it's many, many stories.

Trey Ferguson:

Yeah, man, chapter five is a whole lot going on. That five starts with the story of Ananias and Sapphira. Right? The there's a couple in the early church, who decides like everybody's doing all this sharing and stuff going on, and they're selling their belongings and putting it in a community pot. But they devised this plan where and they sell all of their belongings and they only give some of the money right, which is fine. But they didn't say they gave some of the money they said they gave all of the money. And it's an interesting story in that when this happens. They're brought in for questioning like one by one and Peter's like, Yo, that was everything right? At first and and is is like, yeah, no doubt that was everything. And he just like dropped the day. And Peter's like, Ah, you shouldn't have done that. And then flower comes by a little bit later and there's like a flower and she doesn't know what happened to her husband. I don't know what was going on when Aaron's wherever she comes in. And they go through the same thing like a witch I gave, that was all of it right? Just like give Sure. And they're like, oh, shoot, and then she drops that too. And it's kind of a little terrifying when you sit there think about it. But that's neither here nor there. It's not it's not part of the story right here. But that's what's happening. And then as we keep on going to talks about how like, well, no actually is part of story says it, like people are scared at that point, like, Oh, snap, what do we get ourselves into. And then when people recognize the power that's in this community, and everything, it says that there's there's a lot of healing that goes on, people are literally bringing the infirm and people who need healing out into the streets, just hoping that Peter shadow would fall across them as you walk by, and they might get healing. But that's the power in the sense around this new community that's burgeoning after the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, right. And then, from there, after all of this happens, you know, people dropping dead because they lie in and people are trying to get Peter's shadow fall on Him, they get healed and everything. Some of the people who are already entrenched within the Jerusalem establishment and the political and religious center and everything that they they kind of notice what's going on with this new community. And they're getting a little nervous, right, like whenever you have new movements popping up is it's a little nerve racking. So they go start locking up the leaders, find out what's going on. And it's winning. In this particular situation, we got like one of the great escapes one of the great prison escapes in the Bible, where they come out, there's no violence or anything like nobody gets dropped dead. Did they go to get them from jail? They just not there anymore. It's like, Oh, snap, where did they go? And they find them in the temple, preaching, doing the same thing that got them locked up the first time. And from there is like, Oh, snap, what are we supposed to do? And there's a gentleman by the name of gamma low, or the Maila of his whole bunch of pronunciation. I've heard Gamliel yet. But he, at this point, starts like, Yo, why don't we slow this down? He's trying to speak wisdom. like, Yo, we've seen lots of rebels and insurrectionist and stuff pop up, and they all got the little cruise and, and all of their followers in the same thing happens every time. We kill them. Eventually, the movement dies out. So here's what we should do. We let this play out because Jesus already died, right? So eventually, these people should be out of our hair. And if not, then maybe there's something to it. And that's kind of where chapter five wraps up with this advice being given by Emilio. And I'm deciding to follow that advice and kind of backing off of this new community of believers, but also keeping an eye out for

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, thanks. So let's start with Ananias and Sapphira, which I think is I want to say one of the weird I guess it's not like one of the Top Weirdest stories, but it's one that's like definitely is very strange. Yeah. And it's hard. It's a hard one to think about. Because, you know, you're sort of used to like people having a chance to repent or something. And here it is. It's like instant. Yeah, Kristen, what sort of stands out to you and the Ananias and Sapphira story? Where did you go when you were looking at it?

Kristyn DeNooyer:

Yeah, so I really appreciated really James Jennings commentary annex is one of my favorites. And his commentary on this chapter was just really helpful for me in how he kind of talks about, I'm framing it in like death of a sovereign couple, I think, is his framing. So instead of them as this couple making this final decision of what they're going to do with their resources, there's kind of this subverted thing where now it's communal resources. And this was supposed to be something that was given back to the church in this like, free life giving way. And instead, they decided to step aside and be like, nope, for us, we're gonna pocket some of this and then lie about it. And so then he frames it as like. So what is being kind of highlighted here is how this like coupling or this, it's just us, and we get to decide what's best for us and our people isn't the way it works anymore. And now in like this new institution of church, or whatever, it's this communal, shared resources, all of these things for everyone's well being. That was interesting and really

Kate Boyd:

helped. Yeah, which is I feel very appropriate of an application for today. When I think of I mean, I know that I wrestle with some of those things and even sort of the reframing of The Church as a new kind of family and a community, you know, that depends upon each other. Yeah, his take on it was really interesting. I, I had never heard anybody take it that direction before. And that was really interesting to me. And Trey, how about you?

Trey Ferguson:

Yeah, reading in wrestling with Willie james Jr. I'm sorry, Willie james, Willie james, in his commentary on this was really enlightening and gave a lot to think about even in that context. But just one thing that like reading, the text pointed out to me, because I think Willie Jennings brings forth a valid point, a lot of times we make an idol out of like, the couple and even marriage when Jesus like y'all can get to heaven. People aren't giving or taking a marriage, you know, I think that it will be as churches have to do a better job of how we teach through that predicament. But just one thing in the text, like, Yo, what if they just told the truth? Like, what, what are they like? Nah, that's this a bunch of it, but I wouldn't all of it. And the fact that it didn't happen, the fact that they got separately and crashing it, it almost reminded me of like the little scenes in CSI or whatever, on order where they're questioning the people in separate rooms that see the stories lined up, and they clearly had concocted a story where it's like, Oh, tell him was everything. Don't tell them. And that's just an interesting choice to be like, yeah, it still seems extreme in so many senses. But what they were just honest, like, yeah, we sold everything. And we put a part of it in here, but like some of this is still do they still dropped it? We don't get to know. But that's an interesting question. Yeah. What did they what they just told the truth?

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, well, I think when you're looking at so right before this, right before chapter five, we see Barnabus. That's where we meet Barnabas at the end of chapter four. And he's just like, sold his land are giving it to given it. And you know, we see the church doing that. But then also at chapter two, we're seeing a lot of that happening. And a lot of where our conversations have gone in those is that it was about a willingness to like, give and share, but that nobody was being forced to. And everybody was doing that voluntarily. And they were doing it often, like at specific instances in order to care for people, although here we're seeing people doing it voluntarily, like maybe before their needs. But it is interesting. That a it's in contrast to that, and yeah, like I don't think they would have, it seems to me that the lie is the sin in this is what is pointed out, you lied to the Holy Spirit. And that's why they die. Which is also weird, because I get, I don't, I guess I guess you can lie and someone knows that you're lying. But it feels like you can't really lie to the Holy Spirit because he's there. But. But it also, although maybe one thing that I noticed too, was that. So normally, Luke is talking about people being filled with the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is like people get filled with them. But here in a nice is filled with Satan. Satan has filled his heart. And so that was sort of an interesting contrast compared to some of these other people.

Trey Ferguson:

Right, in that concept, even of like lying to the Holy Spirit. It's such an interesting phrasing, particularly with how x stars or not X stars, but chapter two, from then on with the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, and how the Holy Spirit is that which binds the community. The fact that we now have this supernatural community is not so much bound by family ties, or lineages or ethnicity or anything, but it's the Spirit of God, and that you would go out of your way for like, such a little deception. Like, it's almost like why why would you do that to us, right? When the Spirit is indwelling. And everything, it almost makes me wonder, like, what that phrasing in terms of lying to the Holy Spirit, like you did, this isn't what you're used to anymore like this. All we have is each other. And why would you put us in this position? You know? Still an overreaction? Oh, it seems like

Kate Boyd:

Oh, harsh. Yeah. Yeah. Although the stuff I was reading was talking about how often, you know, this kind of thing. Execution for things like this, you know, would have been pretty normal. And, you know, if this is maybe less historical and more fable, or maybe it's, you know, framed in those sort of terms, then yeah, it's really about a relationship and integrity between yourself, the community and God. That apparently was missing for these two. planned it really well, like it was very intentional. It wasn't an accidental thing.

Trey Ferguson:

Exactly. There's even one aspect in which you mentioned executions wouldn't have been uncommon right? As a matter of fact, in the same in the same commentary, right, the will the Jennings,

Kate Boyd:

maybe, yeah. But he draws a

Trey Ferguson:

parallel between I think, Joshua chapter seven, there's the instance where, oh, yeah, there we go the story of akin where he keeps them I suppose they shouldn't have, and they get the hard parts handed to him in a battle because of it. And they have to do this investigation, they find it and then the community like goes in on him, they stone him, right, and he's executed right there. And then it's contrast it with this particular story where nobody touches or to fire, right, like, that's an act of God. And it's framed. And that comes in with a gentleman's commentaries as God reclaiming the power to take only that which God can give, which is life. And that that judgment, that action is surrendered by the people and by the community and given to an all powerful guy, now painting some of the poetic in that juxtaposition as well.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, I liked how he framed that, because I had never really thought about the fact that it was God versus the people who took the life. And then when you think about that, compared to how people would blaspheme, and they would get stoned by people. It was a really interesting, and something that we don't necessarily play out super great in Christian history. Yeah. Um, but even though there's fear, so great fear sees the whole church and all who heard of these things, but we also sort of see this hopeful thing, right, we're sort of seeing the power. That is also accompanying all of this as these healings sort of take place. And to the point of like, a shadow being purported to have healing powers if it's Peter. Really interesting. There. Kristen, what did anything sort of stick out to you in this little section? From Solomon's portico?

Kristyn DeNooyer:

Yeah, I just thought the juxtaposition was fascinating in our moving from this fear to this, the defining factor of Peter is that he heals and there is healing here. And so I thought that was really interesting. In like, just the holistic pneus of like, the power, and like the awareness of the power, that it's turning into this, like, Oh, this is where I bring my sickness, or my brokenness, or whatever, and there's healing here. It's an interesting observation.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah. And I love that connection, too. to even think about how holistic, like this is, right? Like, they're not just giving everything they seem to do as a community, or even as apostle seems to be wrapped up not just in the spiritual but very much like in the physical, in economic, in the social, they're in that. And they don't try to separate them, like it just becomes and I think we see a lot of that, like, even in chapter six, we'll see that come even more fully. But that you can bring any kind of your brokenness and, and even potentially just being near is, is healing in that way about you try?

Trey Ferguson:

Yeah, when you look at that juxtaposition number one is kind of jarring. For me, coming out of the they just dropped dead. And then we talk about Hillary like, Wait, okay,

Kate Boyd:

now maybe there should have been like a better segue or story.

Trey Ferguson:

Peter just cast a shadow over them real quick and see if there's like, how powerful is the shadow, I don't know. But then there's also this continuation of the idea of Jesus man so powerful that people would just want to touch the hem of His garment that could be held. And then you have Peter, who brings such a hope that people are willing to sit on the sidewalk, not knowing when he might come by when they'd be lucky enough to see him. But man, maybe just a shadow could be cast. It could be transformative for my life. And the idea that this news that they carry this community they formed, carried such a hope that people just wanted to be in the presence, even if it was just a passing moment. Kind of foreshadows the concern that will then take the high council that we see in a couple verses later, right? Like, I kind of get it because they think, okay, we crucify Jesus, and problem solved, but then shoot now that the same dude who denied them three times, that same guy is walking around and people are just hoping to get touched by a shadow like this even worse than the garment they don't even touch them anymore. And just the fact that the hope that lies in the Messiah in the Christ energy Jesus is not only failed to die with the crucifixion, but seems to become even stronger. That being in the presence of people who walked with Jesus becomes enough to cause a change in action or to give people a hope in a new life. I think it's pretty powerful imagery, just people hoping to be touched by Peter shadow.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, I mean, it's clearly making a difference. You know, yet more than ever, believers were added to the Lord, great numbers of both men and women. So they go out of their way to talk about, you know, all of the people and the people are not just bringing themselves but they're bringing their friends. And it definitely has a lot of echoes of Jesus's ministry. And I at least appreciate as I've been watching Peter, in these stories. How much you see those echoes? And you're finally like, Oh, Peter, I think he finally got it. You know, you've because poor Peter has had a rough time had a rough time when Jesus was around. And now he, you see him like, it's clicked, and he's moving, and he's doing the same things. And they're keep spiraling out to even have the same or, or more effect than it did before. Which is cool. Right? Okay, the persecution of the apostles. So obviously, the high priests are upset. I'm jealous. Jealousy is apparently the driving factor, which is interesting, but not surprising, I don't think, um, and then they put them in prison. So what do we think of this episode?

Trey Ferguson:

Yeah, you said something interesting. Just now with regards to jealousy being the driving factor, and jealousy as a concept discussed in the Bible, something I wrestle with a lot, because a lot of times we view jealousy and envy is synonymous, which isn't necessarily the case all the time. Right? Yeah. Because we're told not to be not to covet. Right Man, that's a constant theme throughout the Bible. But so is the idea that God is a jealous God. So I sit there trying to wrestle with that. And you see that like, envy is when I want something that belongs to somebody else, rightfully covenants what coveting is, whereas jealousy is described, like five, kind of, give us an opposite of what it means when we talk about a jealous God is God. God doesn't like it when we give people attention, honor and reverence that should be reserved for God, the Creator of the heavens and earth. He doesn't like when that is doled out to other people, right, or other creative things, or idols, and things of that nature. So when we say that jealousy is the driving factor, it's almost, I bet. It's almost an empathetic description, but it helps me understand why these people would be so frustrated, like, Yo, we've put in the work, we studied for years to understand the scriptures. We we've served under so many people, and now we're finally at this point where people ought to revere us and look to us as authorities on these matters. And there's this dude just standing out in the temple like, right, he's right there. Like he's not even he's not look, look at what he's wearing. He didn't go to anybody seminary. And everybody's just like, trying to catch his shadow, like, What in the world? And I can almost understand that, truthfully, it's almost the same type of energy. I feel when people with like, no profile pictures, want to stab me on twitter, and like, who are you? What do you know? And I can almost understand that driving factor, because a lot of times, especially on Sunday school, we get the pictures of like angry Pharisees yelling, the shout and everything. But I think there's a human element where honestly, I almost kind of understand where you're coming from, like, that's got to be sort of frustrated, like, now we just got rid of one of these guys. Here's another one. He's right there in like he's almost trespassing. DJEGAL teach somewhere else? Why do you got to come to my job? And then try to do my job? You know, like, do I show up at your lake and try to catch all the fish. And it's a, it's interesting in that sense, but then it becomes such, like, so it drives them to the point where they can no longer focus on anything, but it's thinking of extinguishing like this, this other presence, right? Like they're no longer motivated by doing their jobs or performing their calling so much is like, Yo, why are y'all paying attention to these guys? It's a consuming thing. And I think there's a lot to be said about that.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, I mean, even if we rewind to like chapters three and four, you know, we see similar themes, and I may even call out there like when they saw that these men were uneducated, you know, and talking about the things like it is very much. I mean, I think to your point, you spend your whole life basically and You know, to make it to this level of the council, you're probably have been around for a really long time. So yeah, somebody who just hung out with a rabbi for three years, and whose Rabbi died, by the way, you know, like in their minds, that's what they're saying. And you know, he he was a rabble rouser and made a lot of trouble for us. And now we have to deal with him again. Yeah. Yeah.

Trey Ferguson:

It was like, like one of those embarrassing deaths, like you still want to be identify with him after all of that. Yeah. It's got to be frustrating.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, um, so that so they go to prison. And they're just casually broken out in the middle of the night. Kristen, what did you sort of think of the bit in prison and going back to preach?

Kristyn DeNooyer:

I kept centering on the we must obey God rather than human beings phrase. And I don't know, the the like, thought that kept coming to mind was like how secure they were, in their sense of calling. And they're just knowing this is what I am supposed to be doing at this exact moment in time. And I think conversations we have around calling now tend to be like, very privileged, and like, oh, what makes me feel good about myself, and what is easy for me and what gets me to this next place in these dreams, I have decided for myself. But like, their sense of calling is super grounded in like, Look, I know what Jesus has done. For me. This is how he's transformed my life. And now obedience is just what I do. And so I'm just going to do that wholeheartedly. No matter what. So that's kind of what I kept centering back on in that is like, sorry, we're just obeying God. That's what we're doing. We're just gonna be here doing that.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah. And it's funny. I mean, again, if we go back to three and four, we see, they're like, just don't just stop preaching. That's all we asked, stop preaching. And they're like, sorry, well, I can't do that. And so even getting broken out of jail, you know? And then they're like, Well, where are they? And of course, they're preaching again.

Trey Ferguson:

That was the like that Loki made me laugh, because if you look at that particular shout, Rose, they were meeting in the temple, right? Like they were meeting and I'm like, Alright, let's go get them and examine them. And then they go to the jail. And I'm like, Oh, my gosh, where are they gonna come back to the temple and somebody comes in is like, yo, yo, I never gonna believe this. They right there.

Kate Boyd:

Right next to us? Yeah, I think God definitely has a sense of humor. Yeah. Um, so yeah, then they're, you know, they're questioned, and they're brought forward, they're like, We gave you strict orders not to do this. And they were really like, the Sanhedrin was really mad, and they wanted to kill them. But then Gamaliel or Gamliel, or whatever his name is. speaks up. Trade. Do you have thoughts on on what he said? Or did?

Trey Ferguson:

Yeah, it's actually pretty fascinating to me, because it was a very pragmatic decision. Right? In terms of how to save face, and still protect your best interest at the same time, I guess Absolutely. A decision that I can see myself making in a similar circumstance. Because there's, there's an element to being in the public, as well as being somebody who's viewed as a leader that makes you sensitive to how your decisions and actions will be perceived. And it makes you move really carefully. And the way he spells out his logic, like, look, we've seen this happen plenty of times, like Jesus was not the first one. As a matter of fact, like there's there was another Jesus at the same time. I like some translations of the Bible tells Barabbas his name was Jesus. Barabbas, right. And the idea that they were they were almost interchangeable, like, which one of y'all would which one of y'all went free? Or let me crucify? Like God. Emilio says, look, we've seen this happen before. And people die, like eventually is going to fall out. How are they going to follow somebody there and they're dead. Despite the fact that there is a lot of talk about the fact that Jesus was indeed resurrected. He doesn't necessarily sound like he believes that he seems convinced of the fact that look like they'll be gone nowhere and let's pretend they don't disappear or dissipate. Like maybe there's a little something to what they say. And the reason that that's so interesting to me is the fact that he doesn't sound like a believer or open to the fact that there might be any validity sounds like somebody speaking from experience and wisdom. But I almost wonder if God uses him providentially in that instance. And as a way of clearing the way for the gospel in this community in this setting, look this back off. And it'll happen because they end up following that advice and letting the beat to an extent. And then that in the fact that Gamaliel only pops up twice in the Bible, both in the book of Acts in the second time I mentioned, I'm like, I don't want to have too far eggs, she said, one more story to discuss. It makes me wonder about what role Gamaliel may have been playing in the unfolding and the outpouring and the spread of the gospel without even knowing or being a willing participant. And it also makes me think of things like, even just talking about the whole prison episode, it makes me think of Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Right? And how he tells about the fact that when they would get locked up in mass, they will be singing in the prisons and stuff like that. And Dr. King also has this penchant for pointing out God's activity and people who don't even necessarily identify with God. And it makes me wonder if Gamaliel in this instant, and maybe even more, because of where else he shows up in the Bible is playing a role that he's not even fully cognizant of, in revealing a character of God that people hadn't even yet fully understood.

Kate Boyd:

That is an interesting question. And I'm sure that all like even even those of us who are believers, that that's probably true for us to write something we did, and we don't even know how it was used and unfolded. But it's really interesting to think about, I find it interesting, the people that he sort of compared Jesus to as well, like, I know that they were revolutionaries. But they were sort of like different kind of revolutionary in. I mean, I guess any sort of threaten threat to the status quo feels very revolutionary, but the other ones were really like, overthrow everything, you know. And so for him to compare Jesus to that feels like he also doesn't fully get it, even though we know that they've at least heard this once. Because the last time that they put Peter and John in prison, you know, they, they gave them a chance, you know, up to repent, they talked to them, they shared everything. And now here we are, like in the next set of chapters, where they're doing this same thing. And it even says, you know, that the area was filled with their teaching. So it's not like they weren't aware. Yeah, I just keep thinking about how, how many opportunities people get to, to get it. And still sometimes, you know, you don't, but it doesn't mean that you're not still playing apart one way or the other, which is

Trey Ferguson:

Yeah, I think there's something in that comparison right with the rebels who seem to be living a different type of lifestyle that Jesus was, because for the most part, even outside of the Bible, we most of what we know about Jesus, we know from people who follow Jesus, right, right. And isn't interesting like, yet the story is told a certain way for a reason. But almost any, like opinion of Jesus from outside of those people, whether it be from like Joseph disorient, or, even in this instance, Gamaliel. Within this, this this Luke X gospel, it kind of compares him to some people that we often would scoff at. And it's not too hard for me to draw comparisons, because like at the same like, Okay, you look at Dr. King example. And a lot of people describe him as an agitator and more as a communist or something to be feared, or evil. And I think there's an element of Jesus that yo would make people uncomfortable if viewed through a lens that that freed him from whatever spiritual, non temporal prison we like to put Jesus. And I think it says something about the fact that yeah, like, Jesus, he had some things that might have made some people to have places a little a little are more nervous than just talking about what innocent people healed. Something I sit with a lot, because as you said, a lot of the comparisons that people make, or people that that are compared to Jesus in the Bible, even the people that he was crucified between seemed to suggest that there were far more people that believe that Jesus was something a lot less savory than this other guy.

Kate Boyd:

It and I think that's interesting, too, because so one of the commentaries I have is the South Asia Bible Commentary. And they were comparing the apostles to Gandhi and his civil disobedience and his passive resistance and so on. There's definitely, you know, a juxtaposition in the way that they're going about their revolutions. But that they still get held up against the same, you know, against people who go about it differently. But maybe you're looking for maybe similar ends. But it was interesting to me.

Trey Ferguson:

Yeah, I think in that regard, a lot of it depends on and what I was doing a poor job of getting that earlier is that a lot of it depends on who tells the story. Because if I'm, if I'm somebody who stands to benefit from power being located somewhere, anybody who poses a threat to the power being located, there is an enemy of that, right? And it's in my best interest to portray them as such. However, if I'm somebody who, for what any number of reasons, views that, or believes that power should be located elsewhere, then my motivation was telling a story that is a little bit different, right? And at the end of the day, even when you look at the story of a nice and fire it, the gospel is really about to redistribute, redistribution of power of taking power away from these people and giving it back to God and the beloved of God in this community.

Kate Boyd:

Christian Kristen, how about you what stands out to you in the Gamaliel? Bit?

Kristyn DeNooyer:

I think y'all covered it really well, all of my thoughts, you said much better already. So

Kate Boyd:

I doubt that. And I also think it's interesting. Like, I think Emilio said, what he said, thinking that nothing would come of it. Like I think that he thought it would just, you know, Peter out like all these other revolutions, it would just go away. But you know, he was right. But something in me tells me that he was right in the way that he was not expecting. Are you disentangling your faith from the culture around you? Well, when I was doing that, and as I continue to do that, in my life, the greatest tool for me in that journey was the Bible itself. You probably noticed here on the show that we love the Bible, and we take it seriously. Well, we don't always take it literally. And that means that meaning can get a little complicated. You don't have to let that overwhelm you. I put together the big picture, Bible toolkit to help you understand how all of Scripture fits together in one incredible story. And help you learn new questions to ask to get it meaning without getting overwhelmed. And I put together a special Bible reading plan to help you see new connections between the Old and New Testament. If you're ready to get back to the basics of your faith, the Bible is a great place to start. And the big picture Bible toolkit can help you as you go. You can grab yours today for free at Kate boyd.co/bible. Okay, Kristen, do you want to recap chapter six for us? Sure, do.

Kristyn DeNooyer:

So chapter six introduces us to two kind of major players in the early church. So the first half we have the institution of deacons who are a group of people dedicated to caretaking roles, meeting practical needs in the church, something kind of distinct from preaching and teaching. So that's like our first major player is the initial formation of that role, which continues to this day. And then second major player is stiffen. And we find out in the next couple chapters, even goes down in church history as like the first Christian martyr all of that it's kind of how he's known. But in this chapter, the focus is on his character, what made him distinctive and why he was chosen as a deacon. So he's the second kind of key character in this chapter.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, it's a brief chapter, but it feels like it does feel like it's sort of a transition chapter, but it's transitioning. It's setting up a lot of good stuff for later. So I think it's good to dive into. So first, we see like you said there were introduced to the deacons and they come about because there's some complaints about how people which widows are getting, you know, attention in which widows aren't from the healthiness and they start realizing that they need more more hands more people involved. Kristin when you were digging into the this little bit where they're choosing, you know, the deacons, the helpers, what are some of the things that you found? Interesting?

Kristyn DeNooyer:

Yeah, so when we look at verse one, we can see that like the practical need meeting piece itself wasn't new. So like they already have this system of food distribution. They're already doing that. But what's happening is that we have array of Jews who have access to this distribution, and then Hellenistic Jews in the community being overlooked and excluded. So like, right off the bat, we've got conflict, we've got some drama. And Hellenistic Jews are like coming to Hebraic Jews and being like, hello, I have a problem looks like we both have this like marginalized demographic of single women in this community who needs support. But it looks like this support is only being given to people who speak like you and not people who speak like us. And this is not okay, what is going on here. So, like, simply put, like the Hellenistic Jews, or Greek speaking and the Hebraic, Jews or Aramaic speaking and that was like, a big conflict between them. So like, the reason that, for that being that like Hellenistic Jews originally lived, like in the diaspora outside of Israel, more predominantly Greek communities, and then returning to Israel clashing with the break Jews who have been in Israel all along. So there's cultural difference that we're dealing with different contexts in practice, some, maybe some superiority, attitudes, misunderstanding, language barrier, miscommunication of need, like all of these, like any number of issues that can arise when diverse people are attempting to live into community that is shaped more by by the spirit than by similarity. So that is, what launches that need for more hands more help. And the Yeah, urgency there, right. Yeah, so then, like, we have urgency raised by like these Greek speaking Jews have like, hey, we have this vulnerable demographic of people. Will you take care of them? Like, will you take care of us like naming this? Like, very, like core need of like, hello, we need food? Are you gonna provide food? And the response is, yes, we will. Of course, we

Kate Boyd:

are. Yeah, never.

Kristyn DeNooyer:

We need a better system. And so like leadership, kind of reevaluating, and then being like, Oh, we see gaps, we see who's falling through the cracks. We also know our capacity. And we know what we're called to. And we know, we're supposed to be preaching right now. And that's what obedience looks like for us. But we can't just go around preaching at the expense of caring for the practical needs of the vulnerable people around us, the single women, the widows, the poor, etc. So let's make sure no one's getting overlooked, give specific people responsibility to ensure that everyone has access to food. And that's kind of how the first group of deacons is.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah. And it's interesting, that of the ones chosen, they all have Greek names, which means that they're probably Hellenistic as well. So that there's the the group that's, for lack of a better word offended is also the people that they're elevating, in order to ensure you know, the equal treatment of them, which I thought wasn't a clever fix. Trey, how about you?

Trey Ferguson:

Yeah, I think the story speaks powerfully, particularly in a moment in American society where issues of ethnicity, race, religion, differences, diversity, speak to so many different people in so many different ways to see that this is an issue, that people even people bound by the Spirit have always struggled with handling faithful, even though they did come up with a fix in this situation. There was like, especially as I'm listening to you speak, right. And you said, you listed language as delineator, between the break and the Hellenistic Jews. And I think about all the times I've heard people speak about or declare somebody an illegal immigrant or whatever, and it's easy to identify them. Because often they don't speak English, or speak it well. And how are we shouldn't be taken, or they shouldn't be getting these benefits, right? Because those paid for by American tax dollars and how, even today there's this spirit of like, we don't need to take care of these people because they are not us. And how especially if language is such a delineator that actually goes against the work of the Holy Spirit when the first time of outpouring of the Holy Spirit was the overcoming of language barriers. And to see that become like a central issue is almost disheartening, if not for the fact that they responded rapidly and in time to the magnitude of the issue they had here. And it was also a dope insight that you had just not questioned regarding the First of the people who were selected as deacons head, Greek names, right? They were Hellenistic Jews, because it says that, look, we're not going to try to address this paternalistically As if we know what's best for you guys, we're going to give you a seat at the table, how do you think that this should best be handled? And I think that there's a model there for how we ought to deal with discrepancies, and injustice really. Because it's not as though they tried to hide from this and points or all sorts of other reasons why these people were not being addressed. They didn't try to blame them, like, Oh, why is it that all of none of you guys have families that could take care of you or it didn't need to try to pathologize them and say, you know, what, our bad, because we should be taking care of you. And this is how we're going to address that. I think that's something that we ought to look to, as an example of how to address grievances in such a manner.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, I think another part of the story that sort of got my mind going, was how we sort of saw the separation of responsibility or the separation of gifting, right, where, and I wonder today, if we may take some of that too far in the sense that like, not everyone has to help or not everyone, or that we create a hierarchy of the the gifts and the way that we approach it. But even when you think of some of like the names of the deacons, like we see Stephen preach in the next chapter, we see Phillip, preach two chapters later, right. And so even the end, this also presumes that the apostles were part of this food distribution before they realized that they just needed more help in order to do that, and that they needed to prioritize some things, which makes sense as an apostle, having learned from Jesus like your there aren't as many people who can maybe do what they do with the knowledge, the first hand knowledge that they have at this point that they'll hopefully pass down. But I it made me think about how potentially this could be used as like a splitting of all the responsibilities and a splitting or a hierarchy thing of the gifts in a way that I don't think is is meant to exist.

Trey Ferguson:

Yeah, I think there's a lot to what you just said, in that the reason that these people were selected is because the apostles recognized a deficiency and their current model, like, Okay, we've been trying to put this infrastructure in place, but clearly, we dropped the ball here. And we're going to, it's almost like they appointed a committee of people to investigate the issue and to write this obvious wrong. And I think that that is a helpful model. But like you said, to the degree where all of a sudden, oh, because I have an apostolic gift. I know, I don't need to concern myself with this. I think the exact opposite is true, that you especially need to be concerned with making sure that that need is still met. Because if we're being completely 100% honest, I don't know that we can call a gospel true if people are hearing it, but are going hungry. And I think that's that's a need that was recognized in that moment. So to the extent that we recognize our weak spots, and use community to address them, I think that's a good model. But to the extent that because this is my gifting, I don't need to be concerned with that. I think that sometimes we get the wrong lesson from that.

Kristyn DeNooyer:

Yeah, well, and I think that's where like, the way the text setup is helpful, too, because it had like, immediately after, like, they choose seven people, they lay hands on them, they pray over them, they commissioned them, etc. The next phrases, so the Word of God spread, and the number of disciples in Jerusalem increased rapidly. And so like, I love how that gives a picture of discipleship that's like both cohesive and holistic, but like, there's faithful preaching of the Word and prayer, and there's this faithful meeting of like, practical needs for the poor going on. And that is what is spurring this, like growth and spread of discipleship and kingdom work.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, well, and I think too, it's important to keep in mind, like the word DIAC knows, which we call oats, we now say, you know, Deacon, this sort of like and the verb and the verbal forms of that, you know, that sort of word didn't just apply to this food distribution that applied to teaching that applied to healing that applied to all these things. And so even though I think we sort of separate that stuff out now, that was the word for, you know, your service to God, and anybody who did that, you know, the apostles were, did the work of Dr. Kronos and then all these other people did the work of Dr. Yunus. And so I think, I think sometimes we are obscured from the fact that all of that was called the same level, you know. But you're right, it continued to spread. And that became a problem. Because, because we're headed into an intense section of persecution, and it starts with the arrest of Steven. He was doing wonders and signs and some people took issue with him. So yeah, this bit before, because we'll see next time, his actual, his big his big speech. And, of course, his martyrdom, which I don't sorry, spoiler alert to anybody who hasn't read this story didn't mean to ruin it for you. He doesn't make it. But it starts here. So yeah, Trey, what stands out to you? Or what jumped out in his arrest and that whole beginning?

Trey Ferguson:

Oh, just it it's going so raggedy when I say it was really some haters man. Like, why why also mad all the time. So because Steven is out here, just chillin. And trying to bless people. Like this is a problem for you guys. And it kind of harkens back to what I was mentioning earlier is that I almost kind of understand where the jealousy was aroused and coming from. But the idea that seeing people restored in any way, shape or form would strike you as something that needed to be eradicated or addressed in this fashion in a punitive measure is shocking. But when I think about it in a contemporary context, where a lot of times if we speak about people, even people that we don't necessarily understand or agree with fully, we speak about them in kind or glowing terms and try to make adjustments in our practices to make them feel less threatened more welcome. And a lot of times you you'll you'll earn labels from some people, that somebody who is somehow too soft hearted or drifting in the wrong direction. Like it almost makes it easier for me to understand how somebody like Steven, who was just trying to serve trying to minister to people in a positive way, might be viewed as somebody who needed to be put outside of or othered in this way, or punished or reined in, you know.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah. And I think it's interesting, too. So when I was reading a little bit about the synagogue of the freedmen, so the people who were against him, you know, being from Sirene, and Alexandria and silicea, in Asia, so they would have been in a category of Hellenistic Jews too. So really, we're sort of seeing, you know, different a different kind of conflict now with this, the same kind of people, you know, that they were just trying to minister to, and now you've got this other like it, they see it stirred them up. And, gosh, I wish I had started account of all the death plots in Acts because it is not an insignificant number. People are always trying to kill Paul and Peter and Steven here. There's, there's a lot of plants.

Trey Ferguson:

I imagine I had to be tough for them as, as people who recognize themselves as doubly marginalized, right, like, I'm already a Jew, and then I'm a Hellenistic Jews. So even among the marginalized people are marginalized because I don't speak Aramaic. Right? And, and to have one of your own going out and doing this whole new thing talking about this, this other man who you ought to follow like, Nah, you, you're making us look bad as a unit. You know, we got to get you out of pain. And I can almost relate to that. Because there there are certain people who might happen to look like me in certain arenas. I was like, Yeah, I wish you would be quiet because people keep asking me about what you're doing just because we haven't, because the skin look the same, even if the chicken different, you know. And I can relate to that, in some sense. In some instances without it was really hating Oh

Kate Boyd:

yeah. Kristin, what, um, what stood out to you in this little bit?

Kristyn DeNooyer:

I thought so. Verse 11, says they could not stand up against the wisdom the Spirit gave him as he spoke. And so like, basically, they were just real petty, like, they just lost a lot of arguments real bad, and we're not pleased about it. And that is what their fuel was. And I know it's not funny, but I found it a little bit amusing, but it was like really, just like, couldn't win an argument. And so you're like, Okay, this guy's gotta gotta die.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, it that isn't interesting detail, like, well, sorry. We're gonna win one way or the other. So we're just we've just already decided that I also add, caught the little detail at the end, you know, all who sat on the council looked intently at him, and they saw his face was like the face of an angel. And we're just like, Oh, it feels like a weird thing to say about anybody. Um, but I was sort of tracing it back to, okay. It might be similar to a Moses right at Mount Sinai or a Jesus at the Transfiguration. And so it's not totally out of the blue for something like this to be mentioned. But it did feel kind of, it's like a weird detail. But I guess, you know, he's about to go into a whole a whole thing. So it's, I think it's setting up who Steven is, and that we're getting to see, even though it's just a little, I think we get a pretty good idea of, of the kind of person and the kind of helper that Steven was.

Trey Ferguson:

Yeah, I would almost think that that particular detail was included in there for that exact reason, right? We know that Moses had word avail, because they don't on Sinai, and at the Transfiguration, like, Oh, snap, something amazing happen right here, because Jesus is going, that this particular detail that Steven had that same goal, the same glow, that Moses had the same glow that Jesus had, all of a sudden, like, if that happens in the presence of the counselor, like, oh, shoot, this is a problem, because he's not one of us. And if God's on that sound, like it's almost a detail that seems included to to introduce exactly why such a decisive action needed to be taken right there.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, I mean, in in chapter seven, when he's doing his whole speech, he's talk he talks a lot about Moses, that's a good chunk of his speech. So I don't think it's wrong at all to see those connections there. Because I think that's, I think it is intentional. It feels weird, but I think it's intentional in that. Okay, anything else from Chapter Six before we wrap up? Cool. Okay, so now we're gonna share our meat that in our We thought so something that you're taking for you and something that you're taking for your community? Um, Kristen, why don't you start?

Kristyn DeNooyer:

Yeah, so I kind of kept going back to just the institution of the deacons and the leadership being like, hey, there is a gap in this system, and we can't fix it on our own. We need help. And that is something that is hard for me to admit, I see a need. And I'm like, I would like to fix it by myself. Thank you. And so I think my main thought is just like knowing my limits, knowing what it is, I'm called to, but at the same time doing what I can to not turn a blind eye to the needs of the people around me the needs that I see right in front of me. And so like holding that intention of like, okay, I know my capacity. I know, this is not like the exact thing that I'm supposed to be leaning into right now. But how can I rally people? How can I delegate How can I bring in community to be able to make sure that these people are seen and advocated for and that needs are met. So that was kind of my main thought. And then continuing into that, though, we thought of like, leaning into our gifts, intentionally to support each other rally around each other, when we see the needs that need to be met, or the capacity that's like near the tipping point, to be able to just really support each other and operate in that, that community, communal caregiving way and being on the lookout for the ways we can operate as as one cohesive body.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah, that's good. Thanks, Trey, how about you?

Trey Ferguson:

Um, I think for me thought had to sit with Gamaliel a lot. Because in the pragmatism that he employs and the wisdom that people ascribe to him, I kind of see a little bit of myself or I guess the person that I'm striving to be that saves that that people can look towards. And the other time that we see the Malea is when we were introduced Saul of Tarsus, right, the apostle Paul, who says that he studied under Camileo. And these are two people who, whose occupations and dispositions left them kind of predisposed to being antagonistic towards this new community, but who somehow God used to further advance the community, right? Like we have Gamaliel who's like, Yo, we've seen this enough to know how this goes, Let's just leave it alone. And it doesn't go the way things are gonna go. That we have Paul who's taking part in the persecution of Steven right when the Bible tells that he helps. He holds the coats while Steven Stone Who then is struck blind and recognizes the error of his ways and becomes the most vocal proponent of spreading the Gospel across the known world of the time, as as far as the Bible tells us. And to me, the thought is that all of my learning all of my study, all of my wisdom, all of my pragmatism is no match for what God has already planned with regards to seeing people restored to wholeness, with regards to providing access to God, self, to people at large across barriers, and all of these things. And then I can try to be as learned, as wise as pragmatic as I'd like to be. But at the end of the day, God will make all of God's own divinity known to the world as to me thought I said was, it's comforting that my pride and arrogance, I'll never be able to get in the way. And then the we thought I have to sit in with that really disturbing story of fire. Right? Oh, the idea that transparency is ultimately the goal and oneness and community, not just with your spouse, but with the community that you chose to be a part of through the power of the Holy Spirit. You accept that? That even if like, you know, maybe I don't want to share all this with y'all. I'm gonna let y'all know like, Oh, this is this is for us. We're not all the way there yet. But that deception doesn't have to be what protects community because deception will always tell communities apart. Yeah. I guess that's the we thought and me trying to get to a place where Transparency can always outweigh my need for self protection from the macro.

Kate Boyd:

Yeah. Oh, I need, I need some of that, too. Um, okay. So my me thought, I, I go back to Peter and the apostles, when they get out of jail, like there was no fanfare, they just went back to work, you know, they just went back to doing their thing. And I think sometimes whatever obstacle or whatever that occurred, tends to push me off the track a little bit, instead of just being like, you know, I know when I'm, when I need to be doing. So. Yeah, that happened. But we're just going to go back to, to doing the thing that we're supposed to be doing. And so I think that's really helpful to just sort of like, Okay, we're gonna keep moving. We're going to process what happened, but we're going to keep moving and doing the thing. And then my, we thought, I go back to the choosing of the deacons, and thinking about how, you know, to be sort of proactive in looking for those parts of the community that need help being a part of the solution, but including them in the solution making. And yesterday, I was recording one of these, and we were talking about x 15, when they're trying to decide if people should be circumcised or not. Or Gentile should be circumcised or not. And weirdly, there don't appear to be any Gentiles in the room whenever they're designing all of this. And so it is sort of like weird and uncomfortable. And so you sort of see a lot of like, people talking about people, but they that they were included in the solution in order to make sure that they were part of the process I found is interesting, especially in contrast to what I was in yesterday. And so just to be mindful that I don't know what's best for everyone. But I know that I can ask questions, to maybe get there. So to include the right people on there. I think it's important. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you enjoyed this discussion, I would love it if you would rate and review the show on your favorite podcast player. You know the drill. This helps more people find the show and learn with us as we talk through Scripture. And then I would love if you came over on social media to talk about what your big takeaways were, what your main thought and we thought were from our discussion, or for when you dove into the chapters. You can find me on Instagram at Kate boyd.co and on Twitter at D Kate Boyd. And don't forget to check the show notes to find and follow today's contributors as well. Thank you for joining us and all female