Acts 13-14 | Lyndall Cave and Tim Amor

Lyndall Cave likes to confuse people by telling them she’s 100% Australian and 100% Canadian. Her favourite things usually involve creativity, community, and making connections. She was trained as a seamstress in college, then got involved in YWAM’s film and acting schools in Dunham, Quebec. She currently lives in Central Alberta, where she does her best to survive the ridiculously long winters, and is learning how to work with her (relatively-newly diagnosed) ADHD brain. You can find her nerding out about costumes, new urbanism, the harm of fundamentalist purity culture, Bible context and culture, filmmaking, and trauma-informed therapy at @lyndentree63 on Instagram or Twitter and lyndallcave.com.

Tim Amor has served as the pastor of Beatrice Mennonite Church since 2015. As a Canadian, he's not entirely certain how he ended up in Nebraska. Tim is a one-time Evangelical-Fundamentalist who became an accidental Anabaptist. He is fond of science fiction, good coffee, and he remains a loyal fan of the Toronto Raptors and Blue Jays.

Twitter: @timaamor
Church website: www.summitstreetchurch.com 

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Transcript

Kate Boyd: 0:07

You're listening to happy and holy the podcast where scripture comes to life through a small group discussion. This season, we're walking through the birth of the church in the book of Acts. And you get to be a fly on the wall to see what new things we learn with and from one another, as we engage scripture and community. I'm your host, Kate Boyd. I'm a disciple maker, writer and speaker, who is making space in the church for Christians caught in the messy middle between conservative and progressive, between loving the church and leaving her. We love Jesus, love people and work with God and each other for a better world. Welcome to the show. Are you disentangling your faith from the culture around you? The greatest tool in that journey from the Bible. You've probably noticed that here on the show, we love the Bible. And we take it very seriously. But we don't always take it literally. And that means that meaning can get a little complicated. But all of its complexity doesn't have to overwhelm you. And that's why I put together the big picture Bible toolkit. It will help you understand how all of Scripture fits together in one incredible story will also let you learn some new questions to ask to get at meaning without getting overwhelmed. And you'll see new connections between the Old Testament and the New Testament with a special Bible reading plan. If you're ready to get back to the basics of your faith, the Bible is a great place to start. And the big picture Bible toolkit will help you do that. Grab yours today for free at Kate boyd.co/bible. Now, let's get back to X. Welcome everybody. Today we are deep in the heart of X and we're going through chapters 13 and 14. And I've got some friends with me to talk through it with so I'm gonna let you let them introduce themselves Lindell. Why don't you tell us a little bit about yourself?

Lyndall Cave: 2:10

Okay, my name is Lindell cave. I live in Alberta, Canada. I grew up in Australia and then moved to Alberta when I was 13. Yeah, so I guess I've been involved in YWAM in various capacities through their film school and their acting school and Quebec. I have not, perhaps this is not the best thing to admit right at the beginning of a podcast about Bible studies. But I have not regularly studied my Bible for quite a while, because I like to study it with other people. And it's been a little difficult at the moment. Yeah, cuz I think it's really important to read the Bible in community. And so I am very excited to be able to talk with you guys about what we're reading.

Kate Boyd: 3:15

Yeah, I love that. Um, and we are happy to have you here to discuss it with because it you think that's really important component of how we approach scripture. Alright, Tim, how about you?

Tim Amor: 3:28

Sure. My name is Tim Amer and my name is mispronounced should be a more. That's was always a great selling point. For me. I'm a pastor in Nebraska. But I'm from Canada. And I'm not entirely certain how I ended up here. Truthfully. I do come from a Baptist evangelical fundamentalist background with all the Awana awards to go with it.

Kate Boyd: 3:51

But I was really, I wanna I was really good.

Tim Amor: 3:54

Well, I had to at least get the Timothy award, right like that, at least at that level, and that's as far as it went at our church but, but I became a overtime and accidental and a Baptist along before I even knew exactly what that is. So now I am a pastor at a Mennonite Church. This is the first anti church I've ever been a part of. So I don't I don't know what I do is normal, but that's normal for us. Yeah, I have a couple kids. I'm married. I normally don't study the Bible, unless I'm being paid to do it. Because that's what we do. Right? You can't just give it away for free. But, but for this kind of publicity, right? Like, that's right. I wouldn't.

Kate Boyd: 4:34

I mean, now, all the churches, all the people who are looking for churches in Nebraska are just going to be flocking to.

Tim Amor: 4:44

Finally, finally, finally,

Lyndall Cave: 4:47

Aye. Aye, aye. I kind of relate to not specifically a oneness stuff, but I went fundamentalist in my teen years. So there's some like, you know, more One fundamentalists. Yeah.

Tim Amor: 5:07

Well, we'll compare scars later. Yeah. Yeah.

Kate Boyd: 5:15

Well, thank you guys for joining me. And I'm really excited about these chapters because I like, I don't know, I like missionaries, and I like missionary journeys. And so I'm excited to dig into this. And so with chapter 13, let's first recap it. So everybody kind of knows what we're talking about, as we talked about it. And so Lindell. Why don't you give us sort of the overview of the stories in chapter 13.

Lyndall Cave: 5:44

Okay, so we have Barnabas and Paul have come back from, I think it's delivering cash to Jerusalem from Antioch. And then they get sent out to do their next mission. So they go down to, I'm just checking the names here. It's the names of places that trip me up. So

Kate Boyd: 6:13

yeah, and there's a lot of names of places in this. So there's, it's understandable.

Lyndall Cave: 6:19

Yeah, so they come to PAF OS, which is, I believe, on the island of Cyprus. And Paul talks with the pro console. And then this magician comes in and is trying to dissuade the pro console from turning to Jesus. And then Paul is like, Yo, you're in my way, you're going to be blind now. And then, the proconsul is amazed because the sorcerer does go blind, and then they believe in Jesus. So after that incident, then they go to Antioch, which is not the same Antioch that they were in before. And go into a synagogue and preach to the Jews about what has happened with Jesus. And there's quite the speech that Paul makes recounting their history and then connecting it to Jesus. And after that, the people are super interested in they're like, Hey, can you come back and talk about this more? So they do. And a lot, a lot more people are interested in what Paul and Barnabas have to say, which makes the Jews jealous. So they, the Jews do their best to drive Paul and Barnabas out of the city. And Paul and Barnabas are like, Okay, well, if you're not listening, then we are going to go and preach to the Gentiles. So that's where we end chapter 13 with them leaving Antioch shaking the dust off their feet and heading on to the next place.

Kate Boyd: 8:21

Yeah, thanks. Okay, so we're gonna start just in the first few verses, where Barnabas and Saul are commissioned. Anything stand out to you, Tim, about just these first few verses with the people and the fasting and the sending.

Tim Amor: 8:44

Yeah, I like that. It shows again, that it's not just these two people working some magic on their own some greatness on their own, that there's a whole community in the spirits working here. And there's all kinds of other fun little bits that are going on too. Right like this is you know, with John John Mark being involved and I mean, John marks mother being a leader in the church. Yeah, so there's just this kind of diverse group of people sending them out from from Antioch this place, it'll end up being kind of the sending church or the sending city. Where else would you go from Antioquia to Antioch? Again?

Kate Boyd: 9:23

Sure. I mean, maybe that

Tim Amor: 9:25

I live in or in Nebraska, because we tell people we moved here from Buffalo, but it's Buffalo, New York. And it was only like a half year in where I realized people thought we said we moved from Buffalo, Nebraska, which apparently is also a place but it made much more sense of the person who said he drove to Virginia on weekends, which is also a town outside here. So you know, names are just if you're used to names being all similar.

Kate Boyd: 9:49

Yeah. I, I really appreciate. So having walked through a few of these with folks at this point, I liked How Luke makes the Holy Spirit kind of like a full fledged character. He's very opposite he, she, it however you would like to refer is very operative in a lot of situations. And so even in here, it's like the Holy Spirit said for Paul and Barnabas and Saul at this point is the order of the names and the names that they're using. And so I think it's really interesting how they do that. And like you said that the, the diverse group of people, everything that I was reading about this, they always mentioned, the diversity of the names and where they would be coming from or their origins, you know, from Greek words to North African words to you know, more more Jewish things. And so it was really interesting to think about this really being sort of like a crossroads, very integrated space for all these people. And anything for you Lindell. I think

Lyndall Cave: 11:01

what stands out to me is the reference back to when Paul and or Barnabas and Saul had finished their mission. And then I had to go back and look at I was like, what was that mission that they had just finished? And because when we hear mission, we think like, evangelism stuff to unreached people groups. But Barnabas and Saul had delivered funds to help the church in Jerusalem through a famine. So I just it, I always like to like to look specifically back at things and see what, what is it that they're referencing, like, instead of just assuming what's going on? So I just find that fascinating that that's called a mission like that. Connecting with a different church and looking after their church family that also counts as mission. So yeah,

Kate Boyd: 12:10

yeah, that is an interesting distinction, because I think you're right, at least in my background, which is very evangelical. It's, it's very much evangelism and a lot of other things fall underneath that in priority. And so to see that they sent some of these people who presumably would have been some of their best people because then they're selected to then take the Gospel, right, or they were even prophets and teachers within the congregation in Antioch. So for them to let them go and even do things that weren't purely evangelism says something about the importance of it.

Lyndall Cave: 12:50

Yeah, and it sets up a lot of what happens in the rest of these two chapters. Is that taking care of other churches and encouraging other churches? And like building connections between churches like we're gonna see that a lot?

Kate Boyd: 13:05

Yeah, yeah. And even more later on in Acts two, because there's a lot of communication between Jerusalem and Antioch and all the things Okay, so they are sent out there sent out now they're in Cyprus. What, what do we see in here, anything from this bit? With the magician and the pro console?

Tim Amor: 13:36

So, I got a little Christmas feeling here because we talked about the Magi coming to see Jesus, we call them Magi. But it's the same word here used for bar Jesus. I also I love that his name is bar Jesus, like, Jesus or son of Jesus. Uh huh. Because this is, this is just so great.

Kate Boyd: 13:55

It is sort of interesting. Like, everything I read is, they were very specific. They're like, obviously, he's not from Jesus. It was a common name. It's like, I know that. But I do think it is like, Luke is a smart person. And so he's very, I mean, I think we can sort of see maybe a literary juxtaposition between like a Jesus and a bar Jesus in and what they're doing and how they're operating in the stories.

Tim Amor: 14:22

And he's a pretty good Magi a pretty good sorcerer, right? Like he's working for a Proconsul. Like, that's a pretty high up position. You don't get the guy just making stuff up to.

Kate Boyd: 14:31

Yeah. And apparently, they were very pretty well respected. And yeah, a lot of people looked to them. So it was sort of interesting to see that.

Lyndall Cave: 14:49

This isn't the first position we've run into an X either, is it?

Kate Boyd: 14:54

No, there was Simon a few chapters back. At least that's as far as I've covered So far in recording this season, we've talked about him. But yeah, and that was with Peter right, Peter and John. So which I do think is

Tim Amor: 15:11

he was baptized at least though, right? Like it's about Yeah. But that doesn't actually sound like it's stuck for him.

Kate Boyd: 15:19

Well, and then it, you know, lots

Tim Amor: 15:20

of people, it doesn't stick

Kate Boyd: 15:21

for sure. And I think it didn't stick. But then he was given a chance to repent. And it seems like he kind of did. So who knows, but this guy, Paul, just, it's like, No, you're a child of the devil. He just, he really did not hold back. Which I think is

Tim Amor: 15:39

interesting, Peter.

Kate Boyd: 15:40

Yeah. Because I feel like there's so much and I was recording an episode earlier this morning on chapters three and four, which I think there's a lot of actual, like parallels between Peter and Paul, in in some of that, for the chapters that we're doing today. And so even sort of comparing them and seeing how to know the reaction in the style and even how, in a lot of ways they're doing a lot of the same things. But sometimes, there is a divergence.

Lyndall Cave: 16:13

Yeah, we also like this is casually where it's all becomes Paul. It's like one sentence that you blink and you'll miss it. And then all of a sudden, it's like, oh, oh, he's Paul now. Okay. So, um, yeah, I don't know why it's there, specifically. But

Kate Boyd: 16:31

yeah, well, and then he becomes Paul, like he's referred to as Paul after that. And what I was reading as they obviously that was his Greek name saw was his more Jewish roots. And so they think that it was probably, I don't know, when you become all things to all people, right. And you're going around throughout the Roman Empire, and they're speaking Greek at you everywhere. That's probably he goes by his Greek name. But there is this little switch.

Tim Amor: 17:01

Well, as you said, though, before to Luke is smart. So Luke is very much putting it here. Like he's probably going positive Saul going back and forth sometimes. But Luke is very much delineating here. Here's where the mission to the Gentiles starts to become secure. Now he's going to be Paul from

Kate Boyd: 17:19

another thing somebody pointed out, which is related to that in something I was reading is that once we get them to the Antioch passivity section, so unlike verse 13, it so before it's been Barnabas and Saul, and then it switches to Paul and his companions. So at some point, this is where Luke is really turning the story to focus on Paul and his missions and all those things. So yeah, you do sort of because even Peter had a relationship with Antioch. But now we're starting to see them. Semi diverge, which we'll get even more into in like chapter 15, which isn't in this episode, but there's definitely some hubbub around all that.

Tim Amor: 17:59

For strict Bible nerds. It will say one more time later, Barnabas and Paul, but that's because they're going to Barnabas his hometown.

Kate Boyd: 18:07

Yeah, audience matters.

Tim Amor: 18:09

It's it's very much checking that but that'll be the only other time it's always now Paul in prominence.

Kate Boyd: 18:14

Yeah. That Lucas smart?

Lyndall Cave: 18:17

Does, does it have anything to do with like, the, the name of the pro console is Sergius Paulus. And I'm like, and then all of a sudden, they're like, Well, we're gonna go and Paul, like,

Kate Boyd: 18:30

I mean, I think it could be indicative, because I was, um, something else I was reading was talking about, you know, why would they visit this person. But it's potentially that a connection with someone like this could have a letter of recommendation that would get them into other places, get them established and other places. So it could also be that at this point, Paul really leaned into that. Maybe because of that, I don't know. But I I definitely don't think it should be discounted.

Tim Amor: 19:01

I wonder if there's some lost connections with Cornelius here too. Right. So we already have some ins with some Roman higher ups. And so maybe they're now trying to match some that pattern and Paul do that. Sometimes they'll go to the leader and kind of start there and we'll see missionaries later. Long after acts continue to follow that I mean, that's what makes St. Patrick so famous as he went to all of like the, the clan tribesmen or whatever, all around and going to the high king, because well, this will be easier to share Jesus if, if I get the big guy?

Lyndall Cave: 19:30

Yeah, say the Proconsul and intelligent man sent for Barnabas and Saul because he wanted to hear the Word of God. Hmm. So, in this case, it's the Proconsul who initiates the contact which is cool. Yeah,

Kate Boyd: 19:45

no, that's a good point. And of course, Paul filled with the Holy Spirit that keeps showing up. And and it's interesting To me that it is the, in, in essence, a bit of the smiting of his magician, that really gets his attention. And eventually when the Proconsul sees what happens, that's what makes him believe. Which is very interesting.

Tim Amor: 20:22

It's really nice for Paul here, right? Instead of being the blind, did, he's being the blind or the blind or the blind D. Like, he's like, hey, you know, feels? Yeah, I know how you feel. Yeah,

Kate Boyd: 20:36

I get it, I get it.

Lyndall Cave: 20:38

It just seems so dramatic. It's like, all of a sudden, bam, you're the child of the devil, you're going to be blind. And like, what's going on there that, like, just in the storytelling, it seems to go from like zero to 100 really fast. But I'm sure there's more going on that I'm not seeing that.

Kate Boyd: 21:00

Well, I think it kind of hinges on, it says, But Saul, also known as Paul filled with the Holy Spirit looked intently at him. And so I think, whether that's whether something else happened, it seems to me that Luke is making the point that the spirits sort of like pushed him that like, told him which isn't that unusual, given what we've seen, from the Holy Spirit already, and being in saying and being called calling them out. But also, up to this point, we've been through Pentecost, we've been through Peter being in jail and released like a bunch of different things. So I don't think it's that. So I think that may play a role in the response, but it does seem to be very, is like very strongly worded. And it is, at least in Luke's telling, it feels pretty instantaneous. Like it escalated very quickly.

Tim Amor: 21:57

I have in my notes, and I don't remember where I snuck this from or if I'm just making stuff up. But the idea that here I actually see a bit of a glimmer of hope for bar Jesus that in some ways what we're seeing this as it's like a curse from Paul but in a lot of ways he's giving our Jesus the same gifts that he had this time to be blinded to experience something a bit different. Maybe there's opportunity for repentance there, right? Like he's challenging him and showing him what what real power is like or through the power of the Spirit. So you know, for a little Yeah, no, I like that. It's I was down on Simon the sorcerer's, I don't think Simon repented but you know, maybe by Jesus, who knows, maybe

Kate Boyd: 22:33

far Jesus has a chance you never know. Um, okay, so go ahead.

Lyndall Cave: 22:39

I do also love the way like the pro console has sent and wants to hear the word of the Lord. And then Bard Jesus is getting in the way and the Holy Spirit is like, Hey, God, like, want to protect what the proconsul is desiring and like, wanting to hear so I love that the that obstacle is removed for Sergius Paulus. And he doesn't have to do it himself, like the Holy Spirit steps in and is like, whoa, whoa, whoa, through Paul. And he's like, Yeah, let's, let's remove this obstacle, but also that obstacle also becomes a way to like, amplify the message that he's looking to hear, which is really cool.

Kate Boyd: 23:24

Yeah, it's the thing that actually made it click as it was going. Yeah. Okay, so Antioch of Pisidia where Paul and his companions arrive at minus one. Go into that he Yeah.

Tim Amor: 23:45

For John Mark, right. Like his mom's a leader in the church. He's growing up he gets to go with like the big guys like he's, he's chosen, and it gets there. And what does he get him on his first journey? A Magi. So I'm being told they're like, son of the you know, child of the devil instead. And then someone gets blinded. All these things happen. It's also dramatic, and he's just like, I'm just gonna go home. Okay, my guys like you just just Nope. So like, he's just a young guy, right? He's like, Well, that was fun. Let's never do that again.

Kate Boyd: 24:14

Well, and so in, because John Mark, I believe pops up a little bit again.

Tim Amor: 24:22

A couple of chapters. So come back. Yeah. And like 15

Kate Boyd: 24:25

but again, Paul's like I want nothing to do with John Mark. So whatever happened, I feel like there's a there's more to this story, then mark is just kind of going off he like Mark after, after the Jerusalem Council, Mark and Barnabas go and do their own thing. And Paul ends up with like, different companions. So I think there's definitely some sort of tension and we're and we

Tim Amor: 24:51

see that tension coming out of Paul a lot in these next few chapters to it, especially reading between lines and other stuff. Like there's a lot people don't like Paul, people like theater. People really like Barnabas. I mean Barnabas is the one who's like, no, like, I'm the guy who goes and put someone under their arms. Yeah, Paul. Yeah. Everybody knows he's going to come with me. I can we can do something together. And we got to bring John Mark again. No, no, we gave him a chance. That's a lot. Yeah.

Kate Boyd: 25:17

Paul is very clear on his priorities. I think that's one thing that I I see over and over in him, he is like, I am here for Gentiles. I will preach to Jews, but I'm here for Gentiles. And anybody who gets in my way can just get out of my way. And so he's very, he's like laser focused, at least in Luke's telling. I think Luke is very sympathetic to Paul. And so you probably see some of that. But yeah, in some of the things that happen. When you hear Paul's telling, and other things, he's not very kind about some people. He's very like, he's, he's a very strongly worded man. So in some senses, his response to bar Jesus may not be that may not be that character.

Tim Amor: 26:07

I think too, you can see, because Luke is specific when filled with the Holy Spirit. Later, when there'll be the argument, and he refuses to take them, there's no note of being filled with the Holy Spirit of making that decision. So it's, it's not it's not obvious, necessarily, but But Luke, I mean, John, Mark will be someone that Luke will know, later and other stuff, but he gives us the gospel of Mark. Right, Peter's Journey. So. So I think that there's still, you know, we got to go and say, he abandoned us. But also, you know, yeah, that argument was so heated. Yeah, it was there. Was there. Was there spiritual discernment going on? Or was that just your feelings and being able to differentiate that even in someone who's as powerful a leader, and well respected even by Luke as Paul? Yeah, it's very interesting.

Kate Boyd: 26:54

I mean, that's fair. That's a good point.

Lyndall Cave: 26:56

And, and Luke is very tactful here, too. He's like, where John left them to return to Jerusalem. And he doesn't go into any of the whys.

Kate Boyd: 27:07

Like, we've been talking for a long time about, like, you know, five words, but it's, but it is interesting. And I do think that it, I mean, it shows who Paul is, and how he's accustomed or will be moving through the world. And I think, for the rest of x, we're really hanging out with him. So I guess we just kind of get used to this sort of Cavalier behavior. But that's part of what makes him I guess, I don't wanna say good at what he does, but it's part of why he is able to accomplish a lot of the things he does, I think, because he just, he's clear, and he's focused, and he's going to get it done. And he won't let anybody stay in between them.

Tim Amor: 27:52

Well, filled with the Holy Spirit,

Kate Boyd: 27:54

filled with the Holy, it's the Holy Spirit, also known

Tim Amor: 27:57

for saying, like, Paul is a jerk, right? Like he's not he was he was like, a, an extremist, violent person and other stuff who's being reformed in these ways. And it's because of the Spirit. So the, I think, the spirit that and we're seeing Jesus work through maybe even some of Paul's negative tendencies, right? These aren't all positive character traits. He He's driven, and he's been shown what it means to suffer for Jesus. That's what Jesus says. So I think sometimes we get a little over hero worshipping on some of the people here when I mean, the main character, even through all of Paul's journey, that's doing stuff is Jesus's power through the Holy Spirit, changing people. But But yeah, I mean, I don't want to, I don't want to swing the pendulum too far the other way. I mean, Paul's obvious now,

Kate Boyd: 28:38

I think that's, I think that's an important perspective, too. Because I people, I think you're right, people either love Paul or hate Paul, but there's a lot of in between, that we should sort of be mindful of, because Paul was also a human being. So he has good things and bad things about him. And God can, you know, work through the bad things, but doesn't necessarily mean that those are things to stick around forever, that maybe those are transformative things too.

Tim Amor: 29:06

And that this is a side that you probably cut out later. But the the brother of Jesus really doesn't like Paul, right, like Jakob or James. And when he meets with James a little bit later, Jim says, basically, you've caused all this trouble. So you're going to go to this place and you're going to go right to where all those people who want to kill you are going to be and if you have to die to fix all this stuff, that's your fault. And I'm okay with it. And Paul afterwards is like, No, you're right. This is my fault. If I do die, I should just go. Okay. Like, it's very, like in reading just the straight English like when it's translated like, oh, yeah, he's gonna go shave his head. And he's like, no, no, like, he's going to the place where everybody wants to kill him right in the midst of it. Yeah. And it's partly because Jacobs like or James in our Bibles like this. This was all because of you like you did this. So you've got to go clean it up. And you might die for it. And that is a price the church is willing to pay.

Kate Boyd: 29:56

I mean, if you die, you die. I don't know.

Tim Amor: 29:59

Convincing. enough that Paul's like, Oh no, like you're you're right. Yeah, I will I will do that okay,

Kate Boyd: 30:04

well when you even like in other things where we're translating Galatians For class and even there you sort of see the tension like Paul's like I visited with Peter and yeah I saw James too and then but I didn't see I don't know anyone else but he just like he says James because he's like supposed to visit him but there's clearly some tension you're not always get along

Tim Amor: 30:29

that is not my unique take that is from Dr. Cynthia Westfall, who, right What is it Paul engender or something on is a big book and things like that? So that that was her take on Paul that she kind of does?

Kate Boyd: 30:41

Yeah, I'm not. I wouldn't be surprised by that. But I'll be curious someday to sit down with both of them and just get the full story. What happened? What really happened between you guys will bring Mark to

Tim Amor: 30:54

a Doctor Westfall has a personality that's big enough that whatever, like, I wasn't gonna raise my hand and be like, No, I think I think that's wrong. No, whatever. Whatever you say, Dr. Westfall, like, you're you. You're the You're the boss. Like you got all this.

Kate Boyd: 31:07

Okay, so they walk into the synagogue. And we see, um, yeah, a sermon. What do we think what sort of stood out? Lindell? What did you pick up from the section?

Lyndall Cave: 31:22

Okay, so the first thing that I really like thinking about is I like thinking about, you know, Luke writing this? And how the heck did he get the text for this sermon? This is what I'm really curious about, like, was this written down somewhere? Was it such a banger sermon that people just remembered it? And they're like, oh, my gosh, this is incredible. Or was Paul like, talking and kind of gave an overview of what he said. But anyways, I just like to think about that this sort of like, the literary side of things as well. And I love that you guys are going into that as in other places, as well, so and then also why these particular things, why are we focusing on this particular message? And in this case, I think Paul is talking to the Jews. And I think this is the first time we hear him preaching. I think so. And so he, he's not doing his whole Gentiles thing yet. So remember that he's speaking to the Jewish people. And so I find it fascinating that he, he's speaking about their common history, and retelling the story of who they are as a people. And I think storytelling is really important. Storytelling reminds us who we are, and it helps us find our way forward. And so the particular story that he is telling is about their histories of people, the kings, and then he ties it to Jesus, and says, Look, Jesus, is the fulfillment of what we've been looking for. I'm not a Jewish scholar, by any stretch of the imagination. And, but I feel like knowing Paul and knowing Luke, this is a very well structured, literary piece and sermon, very well crafted to make the point that Jesus is the point. Yes, I don't have specific thoughts. It's just more general thoughts about Yeah,

Kate Boyd: 34:02

I mean, this is one of my favorite things to to see people do in the New Testament is connecting all the dots for everyone. Maybe that's just because that's my favorite thing ever is to see all those things. But, um, so it is very interesting to watch. I mean, if we look at say, like Steven Steven did this a few chapters ago, he's connecting dots for a slightly different purpose. But you see the same sort of thing happening here and shaped in a way so that Jesus is the fulfillment of what Israel was meant to be. And so i i To really appreciate that and the rhetorical style. Paul's a smart communicator. He's usually a messy communicator. So I'm glad that Luke orders some of that for us, but he's very smart about how he goes about things. And so I appreciate that. How about you Tim?

Tim Amor: 34:59

Well, I Soon we're getting a Coles notes for like a shorter version. Oh, I said, Coles notes. Is that the right form in the

Kate Boyd: 35:05

US Cliff's Notes? CliffsNotes. Thank you. Sorry, Cliff's Notes here.

Tim Amor: 35:09

I just have to adjust.

Kate Boyd: 35:11

The Canadian I always

Tim Amor: 35:12

forget. Yeah, I get so many weird look, sometimes I can never remember Cliff's Notes. But so it's a shorter version. There's this thing that they used to do in the ancient world that I'm really uncomfortable with, in the way that we do history now. More, they're like, you know, I know the person. And this is probably something like what they said. And they're very comfortable, just like, Yeah, I know them. So it's probably this, but this, this seems very Paul. And I think it's okay to acknowledge that I think this is a bad sermon. Right? Like, it's not, it's kind of boring to me. But it's not aimed to me. He's going over and basically, constructing this biblical theology argument on how everything connects together, and as good biblical theology should do, puts Jesus right at the center. And then he also like hits on some like, weird, cryptic songs, there's some Isaiah in there, then he like, ends with, like, a warning from Habakkuk. Like, it's, it's just kind of like all over, but he knows his audience. Yeah, these are the things they need to hear and other stuff. Because I mean, you could go and give a great version of this, and almost any church in America, and I would expect it to fall flat. Because it's, I mean, it's not a great organizing of stuff for the way that we take information, but it very much speaks to, to their culture and their it ties the people there into who Jesus is to them. And what that means going forward, don't be like these others who are rejecting because of this, this, this or the room, because they went and they worked with the Romans, this this that, you know, like tying in those ways, but it's, and you know, it works well, because they, not only do they believe they want to hear more. And I like that. So often, maybe we get stuck in this conversion process. Like, we just got to hop to Jesus and like, will you say this, these magic words and accept Jesus in your heart as opposed to this form of evangelism, which is digging deep into the story, the history of this conversation that continues. Like that from from Paul, even though his sermons kind of bad.

Lyndall Cave: 37:10

By North American standards?

Kate Boyd: 37:13

Well, I think it's what I think you're right, though, I think he is very aware of the people that he's talking to. And I think this that's something that Paul does very well, because when you look at him talking to Gentiles, he almost uses no scripture, right? He'll talk about what's in their culture, but here, he's very, like, I'm gonna lean on the Old Testament. I think part of that is because he's in a synagogue, and he's an educated person. So they asked him to speak. And, and so they're there to hear about their scriptures. And so he gives them that, but he gives them the Christological perspective on it. And so yeah, I mean, I think it's fair, it's not aimed to us, we don't I, I think generally in America, we're not super familiar with a lot of the nuance and a lot of the details in the Old Testament. We know the big picture, and or the big stories that everyone tells. So it is interesting how he throws little bits around, and he does that a lot. That they, they're not super stoked about it.

Lyndall Cave: 38:24

A lot of them are but yeah, so far.

Kate Boyd: 38:26

I mean, I guess maybe I'm getting a little head because they do. I sort of I'm getting I think I'm probably getting of all the Paul stuff mixed up. But um, yeah, I mean, some of them respond, well, some of them a little less so. So yeah, what do we think of the response in all of this?

Tim Amor: 38:55

I want to hear more, is like the best response you can get, I think, to sharing the gospel. And I think that we, we forget that in churches, we want to just like always, you know, they say we always hopping right to the end. But what we want is to be a place where people can think ask questions. Yeah, we can doubt together we can work through some of that together and slowly come to believe together. I mean, as, as Linda was saying, reading the Bible together, changes the way we approach things, not just because other people bring other perspectives, but because the Spirit works through the diverse community in new ways. So so that's why I love the most better like, we'll hear more next week.

Kate Boyd: 39:35

Yeah, I mean, and then cut to the next week, and it's like almost the whole city gathered. Yeah, so though, so though it fell flat to you, Tim. Apparently, they were very impressed.

Lyndall Cave: 39:45

Yeah. And it says it sounds like in between the two sabots. There's a bunch of Jews and converts to Judaism who are asking questions and being like, hey, we want to know more is Well, and then it says Paul and Barnabas talked with them and urge them to continue in the grace of God. That's interesting that continue. Because I think we have a little bit in our heads that, again, like there needs to be this conversion thing and that, but Paul and Barnabas are actually encouraging these Jewish people to continue in the grace of God, like, they, they don't have to switch directions, or whatever. It's just like, keep going forward.

Kate Boyd: 40:37

I think. Yeah, I mean, I think we forget that at this time, Christianity was very much a sect of Judaism. It wasn't seen, really, separately in a lot of people's eyes, it was just sort of like a different way of taking it. But which would change, you know, later when Jerusalem falls and the temple goes away, and then it sort of becomes a different thing entirely, or not entirely. But, um, so I was reading to that, apparently, there were, there typically would be a lot of Gentiles interested in Judaism, that wasn't uncommon. But a lot of them wouldn't completely convert, because they didn't want to, because to do that, you sort of like, lose part of your ethnicity and your heritage. And yeah, circumcision becomes, like, that's not all you're gonna do. Yeah. And so they didn't necessarily want to lose all of that. And so it is interesting that this was, although it was, there was a note that inscription show many more women were interested in Judaism than men may have something to do with the anatomical effects of such a decision.

Tim Amor: 41:46

There's an interesting, I mean, all through church history, whenever some, there's some new movement, there's always more women at the center than men, always in Christianity and other stuff. And I wonder if it has to do with the

Kate Boyd: 41:57

end of the everywhere,

Tim Amor: 41:59

until something becomes established. And then you know, the men can take our rightful place on or whatever it is. But the it maybe that comes as part of the freedom of the gospel that when you have less power, it suddenly becomes more attractive. And when you have more power, it's naturally less attractive. Yeah, I wonder if some of that's at play.

Kate Boyd: 42:18

I mean, I definitely have seen that overseas, most of so I used to work for a church planting organization overseas. And most of the people who would be part of the early part of the movements were women. And then we met an interesting guy in India, who he was like a rich, successful person, but his parents were against Christianity, because it was the religion of the poor people. And so it's really interesting those dynamics that sometimes arise, like when you don't need Newt, like good news, you know, when your life is kind of okay, then maybe you're less likely to be attracted to something like this. But for people who need something good. And then a community that's built around that could really be helpful. So that it doesn't surprise me at all, like that still plays out around the world today.

Tim Amor: 43:16

Good News to the poor is bad news to the powerful.

Kate Boyd: 43:19

Yeah, it's a bummer. But you know, cost of discipleship, etc, etc.

Tim Amor: 43:28

It's like I say, as a white man in America, that's right.

Kate Boyd: 43:31

Like, I'm, I'm a very privileged person. But I'm trying to be more aware of that and doing better. And then, yeah, and then we see, the Gentiles are like, cool. We like this, and became believers with the Jews. Not so much incited people. So they shake the dust off.

Lyndall Cave: 43:57

Yeah, I think this, this next section is actually superduper important. Because so the next Sabbath, the whole, almost the whole city shows up to hear the word of the Lord. So I'm guessing there's a much higher proportion of Gentiles in this crowd. Now, then we're at the first sermon,

Tim Amor: 44:17

and pagans to write like, not like Ray, like some understanding of maybe Judaism, but they were like, there's all kinds of stuff out there.

Lyndall Cave: 44:25

Yeah. Yeah. And then, and then the Jews seal this Pete, these people and they get jealous and they start abusing what Paul and what he's saying. Like it says, They heaped abuse on him as he's preaching. And then Paul and Barnabas, answer them, and they say, We had to speak the Word of God to you first, but since you reject it, were turning to the Gentiles. And then, for this is what the Lord has commanded us. I have made you a light for the Gentiles that you may bring Salvation to the ends of the earth. And I feel like that's such a pivot point for the book of Acts, and for Paul and Barnabas his ministry and for the early church in general. Yeah. Where they declare this, because we've, we've seen, like reaching out to the Gentiles we've seen, you know, fill up in the unic, the Ethiopian eunuch, we've seen Cornelius and the sheet from heaven and Peter, but this feels like, you know, a stake in the ground, making a standard being like, Okay, we, we did talk to you first, and now we're making a decision, and we're taking the mission in this direction. And I don't think that means that the Jews were abandoned, maybe? I don't know. No, I

Kate Boyd: 45:55

mean, because they continue to go to synagogues first and the places they go. So they still continue the pattern, but yet on tends to repeat itself in response to well,

Lyndall Cave: 46:05

yes, it just feels like such a definitive moment. And probably Luke is focusing on this as well, because Luke very much focuses on Gentiles in his writings. So yeah, I just wanted to highlight that and make sure that we didn't miss this turning point.

Kate Boyd: 46:25

I think that's good. It does sort of feel like a specific hinge, like you said, for the rest of this.

Tim Amor: 46:31

And it pushes towards the council that will meet in Jerusalem and chapter 15. Later, because here we're seeing people are being accepted as converts who weren't even like Gentile converts to Judaism first, so they're being allowed to enter in the faith without any of the Jewish practices. Right. You're just Oh, yeah, you're like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. But they didn't do XYZ. They're not doing all the things i Hey, guys, this is our synagogue. Like, you can't just go and say this year, you're letting in all the riffraff all the terrible people like, there's no, there's no consequence for them on on this. And so like with a lot of things that this is almost what we'll see, typically this religious conservative group that wants to hold on as things where they're uncomfortable with a new movement that challenges their religious practices, which, you know, will always be familiar, even today in our churches.

Kate Boyd: 47:23

Yeah. Somehow, what's old is always new, you know, it may be dressed up slightly differently, but, you know, nothing new under the sun and all that. Okay, so that brings us to the end of chapter 13.

Lyndall Cave: 47:40

Can I make another comment that I find interesting, please do. As you know, the word of God is spreading through the region, I find it interesting that the Jewish leaders incite the God fearing women of high standing and the men of the city. And there's opposition from both the men in the women. I mean, this is another theme of what Luke does. He likes to put men and women together and elevates women in that way. But we were talking about how like, the religion appears, appears, appeals to women more, but this is fascinating that they're getting opposition from women of high standing. So because normally, we hear about like, women accepting the gospel. And but in this case, they're opposing it. So I just find that fascinating. Yeah,

Tim Amor: 48:36

yeah. There's, there's this interconnection that's happening all through this, like, we can't win the debate. So what do you do? You go to the power of politics and state, and we see this political mix with religious leadership. And then when doesn't go away, will will resort to this power and violence to get what we want? Because that's because getting what we want is more important than how we get it.

Kate Boyd: 49:02

Yeah. Yeah. One of the commentaries I was reading mentioned a lot in between this and 14, where they talk a lot about, you know, what you can expect that violence is probably going to be a part of the mix, and even said, disciples life is bound to death threats. And so it's really interesting that we'll we'll keep seeing that proven, but Paul still goes in and does his thing and even tries to strengthen people in that which we get a taste of, I think in chapter 14. And so, Tim, why don't you recap 14 for us?

Tim Amor: 49:45

Sure. Could you just read verse 52, ending that chapter? Because I think oh, yeah,

Kate Boyd: 49:50

I really like that. Yeah. So the end of chapter 13 Verse 52, says, And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit This is right after they shook off the dust and started on their way to Iconium which we encounter. But after being thrown out of the city, basically,

Tim Amor: 50:09

yeah, they were the it's the those religious leaders and the political people thought they'd won. They got rid of the problem people, but they didn't realize that the problem was in their midst now, right like there. Yeah, the spirits the spirits stayed, they didn't kick out the right person. That's right. All right. So I, I thank you that I have the shorter chapter here, because 13 has a lot going on 14 It just it'll continue some of those rhythms with Paul and Barnabas going to conium. So this will be about 90 miles east of this other Antioch Pisidian. Antioch, they'll stay there for a while they share Jesus in their words, there's miraculous signs and wonders. And as as K, as you were saying, they start in the synagogue again. And again, some convert, some believe, and it sounds like this is good. Jews and Greeks are believing and following Jesus. But there's also this group that's rejecting the faith and we see the smear campaign start up, the city is divided, and those who are against Paul and Barnabas, they hatch a plot to kill them. So that the violence is escalating again, not just being kicked out, we're gonna have to try and kill them, this mix of religious leadership and political leaders and violent force. So then Paul and Barnabas leave again, they'll go south, about 20 miles not quite to Illustra where Paul will heal somebody. And this is one of the first I think, miraculous healings. We'll see from Paul. He's not just blinding people now he's actually helping. He's, he's upping his his Holy Spirit game. I don't know. So this, this causes a stir because there's this guy who was crippled. And now he's not right, this is something obvious happening. Now, this is where things get a little bit weird. Is it okay, if I go down that rabbit trail here? And this is a natural rabbit trail? I can come back to it later.

Kate Boyd: 51:54

Yeah, maybe if we recap, and then when we get back to it, we'll dive in. Well, we can go as deep as we want. Because I do think it's really interesting.

Tim Amor: 52:03

Because this all happens really quick. So the people there yeah, oh, you hear this person? This is great. They start talking in their local language. They say, Hey, there's this legend. You guys must be gods. You must. Yeah, so that the gods so we want to go and do this offering to you and Paul and Barnabas have no idea what's going on, because they don't speak that local language. They're sharing in the common tongue of Greek. And then all goes really weird. They're trying to convince them no, no, no, we're not gods, please don't say we're gods don't do this. And they're like, well, they barely convinced them that they're trying to point towards Jesus and God, you know, there's this other way. But then, some of their old friends from Pisidian, Antioch and Iconium. I've tracked them down, they enter the city, they win the crowds over. And now the people very quickly go from thinking they're gods to No, they're not gods and they stone Paul the death. Leave them outside the city. Or they think he's dead. You know? Yeah, well switcheroo there, he's not dead. They surround him, he he stands up and they leave to go somewhere else. That's a real quick turnaround.

Kate Boyd: 53:06

I believe. A little there. You know, I

Tim Amor: 53:10

don't know everything happens. Those of us who've been involved in churches know things can turn real fast. It's true. You never know. So the head of police Derby, there's many new disciples, they continue traveling and preaching and then it kind of hops over. Going back to those places, they've already been less draconian, Pisidian, Antioch, where they'll go back, they they encourage the people there and it's not like the most encouraging thing, but they're saying, like, look, this is gonna be really hard. There's gonna be lots of trouble and send us UK, but we're gonna warn you, it's gonna be hard, you want to remember don't and they help organize the churches with some leadership, which is very interesting. I will keep traveling and preaching and then they finally will get to go back to their home. Antioch their home sending church will share about their journey, and God's faithfulness, and they'll stay there for at least a while. With their other disciples.

Kate Boyd: 54:01

Yeah. Okay, yes, lots going on. Even though this is a shorter chapter, I feel like there is still a lot to talk about. And so Paul and Barnabas come to I conium. And I like how the chapter starts. starts out the same thing occurred in I conium, where Paul and Barnabas went into the Jewish synagogue so Luke's even like I'm gonna shorthand this for you. You're gonna see a pattern and so yeah, from I conium, what do we anything jump out at you from this particular part?

Lyndall Cave: 54:41

I think the fact that they spend a considerable time there, we because it it's this is so fast, like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And it's also just the highlights of what happened. I think we forget that sense of time. And how long Paul and Barnabas stay in certain places. And Tom, there's, it's it's like in life, right? There's a lot of like, not much just regular life stuff that happens in between are like, highlights. So it's kind of nice to be reminded of that now. And then like, you know, they're just eating and sleeping and speaking. And then doing some casual signs and wonders,

Kate Boyd: 55:27

you know, normal everyday things.

Tim Amor: 55:31

That's a, that's a good point, staying there long enough that people who dislike them are able to find each other and hatch a plot together to kill them. So that's

Kate Boyd: 55:40

right, even crossing those ethnic barriers, right? Jews and Gentiles are like, No, neither of us like these guys, we have got to get them out of here.

Tim Amor: 55:48

And it became such like a well known plot that they hear about it ahead of time and are able to escape.

Kate Boyd: 55:54

Yeah. So it's been, it feels like quite the operation. So they must have been there for a good amount of time. I mean, it does say for a long time. But didn't stop them. They just sneak out of the city. And we end up in Lystra and Derby with the healing episode here, which, again, so I was in verse chapter three and four earlier today with some people. And Peter does something very similar. So we see a lot of similarity here with like, he heels and speed and the man springs up and walks in. Everyone's looking at him. So I think Luke's doing some double duty really trying to establish the apostleship of Paul on the same level with Peter in some ways, with these stories. Yeah, the response of these people is very interesting. And I know you both kind of looked at it. Um, Lindell. Why don't you start? What was? What were you thinking when you got to this?

Lyndall Cave: 57:03

Um, well, actually, my bunny trail doesn't have as much to do with this particular story. It has to do more with the next section. So we'll wait. Okay. All right. But I think is interesting. Tim

Kate Boyd: 57:15

has been waiting, chomping at the bit for this Oh, ready to

Tim Amor: 57:18

go. That's because I saw in a lot of things, because we don't always have additional history surrounding stuff. Like for people who are reading this at the time, they're like, oh, yeah, I see what's happening here. But but we know that. So what's happening is there is a local legend, or story Illustra, about Zeus and Hermes coming down to visit, and they're going around trying to see if people are faithful, to see what surprised me is like to the to the real gods, and they're not getting treated well, anywhere. They're expected. They're expecting people to kind of invite them in to show them good hospitality and no one does, except for this old couple, later on. So what will end up happening is they will go and bless this older couple, and they'll be able to be in charge of a, they'll be like priests in their temple, a temple, the zoo. So I appreciate this Temple of Zeus there. And just like all great Greek stories, it comes with a moral and the moral is that everybody who didn't show hospitality to them, is smited and killed, zapped. So that's what the people have in mind when when this is happening. They're like, Oh, we've seen this before. We don't want to get smited we better yeah, they're pretending not to be Gods. But we can kind of tell right in the must be God. That there's a line I read this idea where you can tell that Paul's doing all the talking because they think that he's Hermes. And and maybe it makes sense because Barnabas is a is a Levite. Right? Which will then imply things that we wouldn't know. But he would have a big beard. So like, oh, yeah, naturally, Zeus,

Kate Boyd: 58:54

Zeus, and he's not doing all the talking because her music but injure. Yeah.

Tim Amor: 58:59

And because that story is so embedded in the culture, particularly the city. That's why they're, they're reacting in a way that to us, just seems and even to to Paul and Barnabas. They're like, what's going on here? And the whole thing as they talk about, they're trying to figure out what to do. It's happening in the midst of them switching back to their local language. So Paul and Barnabas aren't exactly sure what's happening until suddenly, like the the priest from the temple shows up trying to offer a sacrifice to them.

Kate Boyd: 59:30

Yeah, I mean, this escalates, certainly, yeah, I mean, they're certainly aware of some of the customs, right? Because they're, I mean, Paul's a Roman citizen, he kind of knows how it works. But at the same time, it's, it's, I must be very overwhelming. I mean, I've been in places where, you know, we're, we're having to communicate through translators, and they give you like, interesting gifts that you would have never asked for, like one time we were gifted a goat someplace. And we're like, well, we can't take this home so we have to give it to somebody else, but But yeah, they're like, Well, we're gonna bring out the oxen. And we're gonna bring out the Garland's and we're gonna march you guys up to the temple, and we're gonna give you all the things. So it is really interesting to see them like being elevated, and then they try to switch it. Paul's like, no, no, no, let's, let's, let's pause, let's take, let's take a beat. And let's switch this up. And so then he starts trying to change the conversation, but

Tim Amor: 1:00:32

they're not very customer at this time. Right? Yeah, like I'm showing you smart, right? They don't know that. I'm going to try and tie this into their story.

Lyndall Cave: 1:00:40

And, and that's what stood out to me in this section is this, I get sermon of Paul's, and how he adjusts it for his audience. I mean, the context is a little bit different. It's not a Sabbath, in a synagogue, and there, he's like, surrounded by this bunch of people who think they're gods from heaven and like, get a sacrifice to him. And there's a big crowd already gathered. So he this is probably more off the cuff than what he might say in a synagogue. But he's also tailoring his message to the people. And he's using the testimony of God's actions in everyday life, like kindness, like rain from heaven, and crops and season and food and fills your hearts with joy. And like, I just, I love the way that Paul adapts his message and his storytelling to the audience that he's talking to.

Kate Boyd: 1:01:39

Yeah, I mean, it makes me wonder if these are more farmer people, right, or more agrarian part because he really is appealing to the, to the natural rhythms of life and things that people encounter every day.

Tim Amor: 1:01:56

And the end the goodness of God. So he is now being picked up a little bit on the story. Right. So what did the what did Zeus and Hermes do when no one showed them hospitality? Yeah, they might have been no, no, but ours is a god that is so generous, because they've already been pointing to Jesus before telling the gospel. So now he's trying to counteract this other story. Ours is a god that's so generous, that he's even helping you guys. So you haven't even heard of him. I'll do all these good things for you. He's not no hellfire and brimstone like you're used to.

Kate Boyd: 1:02:24

Yeah. But it appears that Paul and Barnabas have some stalkers, who came from their past places, just to just to murder them, basically. I mean, if it's very, it's very intense, this Vendetta is serious. They are not pleased. And they almost accomplished it. It's so ironic,

Lyndall Cave: 1:02:51

though, because this is exactly what Paul did to the church before his conversion, right. Like room is getting a taste of his own madness.

Kate Boyd: 1:03:00

Yeah, I mean, he was dragging people from their houses. To put them in prison. I mean, I have my

Tim Amor: 1:03:10

notes here that even at some of these, because I was trying to track some of the the movement here. So they've traveled over 100 miles to do this. Well, they're pretty serious about it.

Kate Boyd: 1:03:20

They're very, like they're very threatened by this message.

Tim Amor: 1:03:24

Like, you can walk pretty far and that time in a day, right, but this is still probably at least a couple days journey. Mm hmm.

Kate Boyd: 1:03:32

That's all well, and to the point that when were in I conium, they were in I conium, for a long time. So like, I don't, I don't know how they coordinate. I don't know if they coordinated this effort, or if it was separate, but like Antioch and Presidio was a while ago at this point, you know, and so now we're in Lystra. And they're like, Well, you know, I heard you're here making a fuss. Either I followed you all this time, or there's been some sort of communication that like, we found him, come come and get him. You know, either way, it's, it's, it's very coordinated. So maybe it was just sort of like a continuation of the murder plot from I conium. And then they gathered other people,

Lyndall Cave: 1:04:17

especially since they were plans to stone him, and then they actually stone him. Right. Yeah, kind of feels like a continuation. Yeah,

Kate Boyd: 1:04:26

it's definitely I don't think it's unrelated. And then they drag him out of the city because they're like, well, that's, we're not going to bury him. He's a terrible person. And supposing that he's dead, they go away. But I love the detail from verse 20. But when the disciples surrounded him, he got up and went into the city. And the next day he went on with Barnabas to Derby, but I love that it was like around even if he had died or whatever that was they surrounded him with intent to care for him and potentially bury him if he was dead. But that it wasn't just that he was thrown outside of the city and left for dead. But his people were also there to support or care. And I think that's just like a lovely little detail in what is a not very lovely story.

Lyndall Cave: 1:05:25

And the thing that I can't get over is like it. In my head, I'm just like, casual stoning. But like, there's nothing casual about stoning.

Kate Boyd: 1:05:35

No, it's very, like, it's a very mob mentality. And that was something I was reading in something else. It was like the civic leaders in the one place, we're just like, let's just get them out of the city. But it's the mobs of other people who aren't necessarily in charge, but they're like, we've got to get rid of this. And they're, they're ganging up on him. You know, it's it's a very different energy coming at them.

Lyndall Cave: 1:05:58

Yeah. But like, they think he's dead, which means Paul is in some pretty rough shape. Yeah. And either, well, maybe that or they knock him out. Bloodlust is satiated. But then the disciples gathered around him, he gets up, he goes back into the city, and the very next day, they leave for Derby, which is like, how injured was Paul? Did like just the fact that he gets up and walks back to the city? And then the next day is like, okay, next city, like,

Kate Boyd: 1:06:42

Alright, time to move on? Yeah, certainly not a comfortable travel situation.

Lyndall Cave: 1:06:47

Yeah, I mean, I know that in some, like, Middle Eastern literature. Hyperbole is used to make a point. But I don't think Luke tends to be a person who usually.

Kate Boyd: 1:07:00

Yeah, yeah, he's

Lyndall Cave: 1:07:02

a very like, detailed, meticulous writers. So I just, it's like, ouch, that's painful. And I just have mad respect for Paul actually going back into the city that tried to stone him. And then I totally understand why he'd want to know out of there the next day.

Kate Boyd: 1:07:26

And I think it's, we also don't, what's also sort of missing in this section is we don't really see the response of the people to Paul's attempt to change the story, right, because the Jews from the other places have showed up to do something else. Which is a very interesting, well, I guess we do kind of see it in verse 18. He's like, even with these words, they scarcely restrained the crowds from offering sacrifice to them. So it wasn't going well all around for Paul and Barnabas. in Lystra. Which is a bonus.

Tim Amor: 1:08:03

What really stands out here to me is that when they weren't going to be the gods, that that people wanted them to be, how quickly turned to them will just kill them.

Kate Boyd: 1:08:14

Yeah. Okay. You don't have to worry about

Tim Amor: 1:08:17

a religious worldview. And what we like that well, then you better How dare You've tricked us or whatever, right? Like it's just such a quick turnaround.

Kate Boyd: 1:08:29

And so they march on to Derby, reclaiming the goodness of that city, and then they start sort of making their way back home and make it back to sending church of Antioch of Syria. Yeah, so what do we see in this what stands out?

Lyndall Cave: 1:08:51

So this is where my bunny trail comes in. Because they return after going to Derby, they returned to list row, which remember, Lister is Zeus and stoning. And then they returned to i codium. Which, I mean, was kind of, you know, casual sign of Martin black again. Yeah, yeah. And then they returned to Pisidian Antioch, which is where they shook the dust off the feet and had this big sermon. And they're strengthening the disciples and encouraging them to remain true in their face. And so, Paul does return back to the same cities where he was stoned. And then later on like, because they go back to Antioch, their home base Antioch. In a couple chapters, we see Paul, go back and he says, Paul, I think this is chapter 16. Maybe we're 15 Paul says to Barnabas, let's go back and visit the believers in all the towns where we preach the word of the Lord and see how they're doing. And then Paul comes to Derby, and then to Lister, and Lister is where he meets Timothy. So I just find it fascinating how often Paul returns to the places that he was before. This isn't something that I used to pick up on, when I read x i, the nines kind of all blur together. But to see this constant coming back and forth, and encouraging the church that's there. And then, I mean, it's really fun to think about Timothy. And, like, was Timothy there for this whole Zeus and Hermes thing like was he there when Paul was stoned? And like I kind of wonder did Timothy ever like rib Paul on their mission a Mary journeys about like, hey, remember that time when they mistook you for me? But, but for me, this says a lot about building relationships. And going back to places like because we, we tend to be looking ahead a lot of the time, it's like, how can we build relationships, not always in front of us, but like, beside us, and then returning and continuing to build people up. Because in missions, or short term missions, there's, it's often you go once, and you come back, and you don't really see them again. So like, or people live there long term, but I haven't seen as much where people keep going back to the same place. And I think there's something important about that. Encouraging the church and continuing to build a relationship, but also like, leaving them to work in build and do their own thing as well. So there's, there's the kind of this connection, but also an open hand thing. Anyway, I find that super interesting also, because when I like, my YWAM experiences being with one particular YWAM base, and I go back and forth to it, and I was like, Oh, look, I'm kind of like imitating what Paul's doing here unintentionally. But that's just the way that it worked out. So

Kate Boyd: 1:12:50

yeah, yeah, I do think it's interesting, especially considering, I mean, half these places, they tried to kill him, well, maybe all of them, there was at least a plot to kill him, and or throw him out. And so not just the courage to go back, but making it a priority to go back to these places. And then even like you said, the and 10 touched on this in his recap, but the leadership that they were putting in place, which would be indigenous to the place versus like, bringing people in to do the thing. And so that's also an interesting dynamic, so that he can just keep coming back, you know, and checking on things, but that it's also in the hands of the people of the people.

Tim Amor: 1:13:40

I have in my notes here, because I'm not always great with the geography of the time. But just noting that, like, to us this sounds like oh, yeah, they're just going back to those places. But geographically, this trip does not make sense. Like this was like the long way home like they were very close to Tarsus, which would have been a very close, then connecting point over to Antioch. So it's very much as, as Linda was saying, there's going back with purpose. And, you know, it's going to be like they know that this will be longer and harder. They know that it's going to be difficult. Well, you know, as we talk is yeah, just talk about all the violence and other things going on, but continuing to make that trip even with whatever physical ailments or or miraculous healings Paul has endured during this time.

Kate Boyd: 1:14:27

And also, that's sort of the message he gives them. Right is, it is through many persecutions that we must enter the kingdom of God. And I mean, I don't know about you, but that's not always the message I want to hear when someone's coming to encourage and strengthen me. But that's, I mean, it's, that's the only thing that they give us that he says them. It's, it really sucks sometimes. But you know, that's what it's like in the kingdom of God. Um, while also setting up, you know, leadership and prayer and fasting, which I do think the prayer and fasting is also important because that's how Paul and Barnabas were sent out in the first place. And so it gives space for them in the Holy Spirit to be the driver of the story in these churches as well as it has been for this. But yeah, it's I don't know, that feels like a kind of bleak, bleak message to leave on. And then it's the only thing included here. Um, it's just fascinating to me. And then they end up back in Antioch, where they started. And they call the church together and related, yes, the other Antioch, Syrian Antioch. And how God had opened a door of faith for the Gentiles, which I think is because it feels like at this point, we would have heard more about that, but I like that they're kind of we talked about that hinge point before in 13, I think we're sort of seeing how that's really pushing through and sets up a good point of the rest of the action that's going to be happening in x two. All right. Anything else you got any stones we left unturned that you really want to dive into before we wrap up with our takeaways? Right, now we share our Mita in our we thought, um, Tim, why don't you go first?

Tim Amor: 1:16:45

Sure. So I just have such a soft spot for John Mark, back in chapter 13. Our ideals of what thing can be like you in ministry and Christian life and a lot of things, the ideals don't match the reality, ideal in the real. And this poor guy after the encounter with the Magi, you know, like, that's not what he signed up for. And I also like that, that this is, this makes it into AX but this isn't the end of his story. Right that that Barnabas will continue to go into care for him that Barnabas continues to see a future something different out of John Mark that that Paul cannot see. Even to the point where Barnabas who spent all this time with Paul, the burden he's taken under his wing, that he will leave Paul to go with John Mark, just like John Mark can be discipled in that way. And that will be the last we hear of Barnabas through the Bible. But then we'll see John Mark pop up through Paul's letters too. And we'll see John Mark pop up as someone working with Peter and others. And you know, our worst moments don't have to define us and those way in those ways.

Kate Boyd: 1:18:01

And was that your meat and your week? Or your?

Tim Amor: 1:18:05

That was my week? My meat? Oh, I got to do it.

Kate Boyd: 1:18:07

We thought you could see both Yeah,

Tim Amor: 1:18:09

I wrote these down because I knew I'd forget them. I really think that these chapters challenge the way we think about success in ministry, like what does success look like? Not just on a missionary journey, but for a church. Is this a successful missionary journey? If we read that over like, would that match up with what we think success should look like? It's all kinds of problems and issues. There's confrontations with types of people were familiar with now in America, those who fuse power of religion with the Empire, and the politics of the land is one of the main contention points they come across. But it challenges our misconceptions about successful ministry, pushing back that, you know, it's not just a numbers game, what I always call VIPs in our church, which is the polite way of saying butts in pews. Like we're not just trying to get more butts in pews. Like that's not what the end goal is. It's about getting Jesus introduced to more people. And that's what we see Barnabas and Paul focus on here. They're emphasizing their faithfulness, that it's not about some end goal that everything's going to magically work out. Well. As we see right at the end of chapter 14, there is not even Paul's message to the peoples like, look, this is going to be hard. But But faithfulness means following the leading of the Holy Spirit, and faithful ministry will often look slower, and it will often be far less sexy than the big booming church stuff that we like to see. But I think it ends up resulting in something different. These aren't just converts. They're always described as disciples. Evangelism, always making its way time to discipleship into the way of Jesus.

Kate Boyd: 1:19:52

Yeah, I think that's a good language thing to pick up on, that they're never referred to that way. Which feels kind of interesting because I feel like maybe when Peter maybe if we rewind and where Peter is, and you know, preaching that we do see more. I mean, obviously they talk about what the community looks like, but it is more like people added to their number versus the word disciple specifically used. That makes me I wonder if I need to dig into some of that. That's an interesting, that's good for

Tim Amor: 1:20:31

Daxing. I didn't notice that either. The, we do see that many of the people who are Greek, and following some parts of Judaism are called Greek converts to Judaism. But then as they accept the gospel, suddenly they're called disciples.

Kate Boyd: 1:20:51

Often it just gave me a rabbit hole to go down. So I'll probably do that eventually. Alright, Lindell. What is your knee and your we? Oh, I don't, I was kind of the same, because sometimes that happens.

Lyndall Cave: 1:21:07

Yeah, I was kind of hoping it would just pop up. And but, again, I think it comes back to that idea of time, and returning, and just how much time and ground this particular chapter covers. And that are two chapters. The the mission involves connecting with people just everyday living and the times where it says, And they spent a while there, or they answered questions. So it's those little in between moments that are really standing out to me right now. Probably, because I am in one of those in between moments in my life season, like, I'm not doing dramatic things, I'm just at home, and I'm working and working through stuff. So that that's part of the mission, too, is that in between is that spending time somewhere, that connecting with the people who are around you. That's probably the me thought. It's just encouraging to me. And the other thing that's standing out to me is that the context that the using of the stories of the people and the culture around you to then eliminate who Jesus is, and the way that that changes, depending on the context that you're in. I think that's a very important thing for us to do, as a church is to remember who we're speaking to, and to adapt their message accordingly. As a way of respecting the people around us as well. And sometimes we don't bring out the Scripture. Like, when Paul and Barnabas are talking to who are they delight Countians who have this legend of Hermes and Zeus, they don't bring out the Old Testament, and instead, they use the testimony of nature and creation. So but then, when they're talking to the Jewish people, they go like full, hardcore Old Testament. So yeah, remembering our audience and who we're talking to.

Kate Boyd: 1:23:53

Yeah. And I think too, that sort of shows, not just their, you know, smarts or wisdom, but their desire to connect, and they're sort of, I guess, I conium or Lystra, as maybe less of a good example, because they're clearly not speaking the language, but this sort of desire of like being embedded in the community in a way that you understood, you can use effectively, what they would know. And I think that's sometimes an overlooked part of, of what we should be doing with our lives, that maybe our lives are more about the in between moments than they are the big ones that we recount, you know. Okay, so for my me, thought, um, I think it's sort of similar to yours Lindell in that, I think, for me, I have a hard time sometimes with availability like I or maybe it's even like yours. Tim I have, I have a real an ideal, right. And so I just sort of like always have expectations for all the moments of my day. And so being available to be flexible or being available to not be doing anything, or you know, being available to change things up. And just be able to listen to the Holy Spirit and to be able to shift whatever it is that I'm doing or use whatever it is I'm doing. I think that is something that I could, I could better focus on. So building some space into my life. And then my we, I think is is more about the prayer and fasting. So I think we normally think about that in very individualistic terms, but when we're seeing what how they're practicing it here, it's very communal, it's a communal way of discerning things. Um, and, you know, maybe a sense of unity and some other stuff like that. And I just, I don't feel like maybe this is evangelical me, I don't feel like I've ever really heard about those things talked in that way, a lot, if ever. And so it really struck me that they were practicing them together. And I'm sure that maybe they did prayer and fasting on their own as well. But that it was a practice of the church to do together in specific instances. was really interesting, and something to think about bringing into community practices well, because, you know, who doesn't need to discern things every now and then or to be reminded of trusting the Lord in that way. So I think that's important. And that just sort of stood out to me. Okay. Well, thank you guys. This was really fun. I really enjoyed exploring the nuances of Paul with you and as missionary ways.

Tim Amor: 1:27:00

Yeah, thanks, I one bit of wisdom that I got from Linda Lindell, as well, as she's using. We talked about this off recording, but she's using a Bible that doesn't have verse markers on it. Because we get so used to approaching the Bible, almost like a textbook and, and you're looking at, Kate, you're looking at chapters a couple at a time, because it just makes sense. But I feel like and these are things I've preached on these chapters, but seeing 13 and 14 together, as one story just feels so different than when we just read it a little bit at a time. And I think that that's one of the challenges we have in coming to the Bible's we approach it like some sort of weird, historic tax, when really, it's this dynamic story. And all of these things are intermixing, even as Linda was saying, and then you know, just a couple chapters later, suddenly Timothy comes in, but Timothy would have been there at the, but if we read it overly, like cut up, we start to miss all those interconnections that that are a natural part of the story.

Kate Boyd: 1:27:57

Yeah, that's one thing I started doing this year is reading. Like, before I really get into a book of the Bible. I read it through all together in one or two sittings if I can. Because I think you start to see some more of those things that maybe you hadn't before. And it's been really helpful for me. I mean, even now, where I'm like, Oh, well, we see back here and up here and where, because there is a lot of I think we forget sometimes that it is literature, even if it's a letter, its literature in a way we have to look at, you know, we can look at the rhetorical style and all of the things and see how they're building and what they're doing. And I just find it endlessly fascinating. But that's also because I'm a literature nerd, in addition to a Bible and theology nerd, so it works out well for me, but I, I always encourage people to do that, because I think it's really, really helpful in making those connections, because it is, it's a library right in the Bible, but it all fits together. And it helps be able to make those connections to see some of that stuff.

Lyndall Cave: 1:29:05

Yeah, because that was one thing that was really standing out to me as well. Firstly, these two chapters together are a really nice little section. And they flow really well together and kind of have a start and an end point. But there's a lot of other echoes to different parts of acts like you know, we have this sermon which echoes back to Stephen's sermon and then we have, you know, the ladies of the city riling up the city against Paul which has like a contrasting echo and Lydia, who accepts the gospel and then we have all of these, like we have the magician incident and we have healing a lame person incident and just all of these other echoes to parts of acts as well which I hadn't picked up on before. So it was really cool to see those, even though we didn't really have time to like, dive into all of them.

Kate Boyd: 1:30:05

I know there's so many that it, we could easily spend another hour and a half unpacking all of those. And maybe somebody would want to listen to them. But I think we've covered a lot of ground today. So thank you guys for joining me. I really appreciate our discussion. And I look forward to sharing it with everyone. Thank you so much for joining us today. If you enjoyed this discussion, I would love it if you would rate and review the show on your favorite podcast player. You know the drill. This helps more people find the show and learn with us as we talk through Scripture. And then I would love if you came over on social media to talk about what your big takeaways were, what your meat thought and we thought were from our discussion or for when you dove into the chapters. You can find me on Instagram at Kate Boyd Co. and on Twitter at D Kate Boyd. And don't forget to check the show notes to find and follow today's contributors as well. Thank you for joining us and I'll see you next